Rarity! True or Perceived

Discussion in '1974 Specific' started by zfool, Jan 6, 2015.

HEI T-!0 vs. Points Muncie

  1. More Value For HEI T-10

    3 vote(s)
    20.0%
  2. No Difference

    12 vote(s)
    80.0%
  1. zfool

    zfool Veteran Member

    485
    3
    May 19, 2014
    Rochester, MN
    Ive been thinking about this for awhile, we all can look back at Cars that we know to be rare such as the one Convertible 68 Z28 or even the COPO's with a ZL-1 or 67 Z28's without any argument.

    Looking at the 74's in their entirety they're not really a rare car other than the fact they have been the first to get chopped up or disassembled because they have the right block and transmissions so we possibly lost over half of the total production to that and accidents.

    There is always the 4 Spd and Air conditioning caveat of 10 to 20% depending on the source, if thats real or not I would argue that if nothing else they both will sell a car that much faster if not add some value.

    When looking at 74's we (those who like, love or prefer big bumpers) see them in a few ways, the early production with Muncies and points and the late production with the HEI and Super T-10,s and the combinations of the 2 during the change.

    what are your thoughts looking downstream 10-20 years? Now their really is no difference between the productions. I'm guessing this will change as the car gets older and people start to restore these in greater detail to their original condition. We've seen guys looking for clips, carbs and distributors to make the cars right. I cant imagine at some point this wont be reflected in value the same way 4Spd and Air is today.

    No claims just thinking.
     
  2. zfool

    zfool Veteran Member

    485
    3
    May 19, 2014
    Rochester, MN
    1 out of 4 so far. Almost directly proportional to production numbers
     
  3. Gary S

    Gary S Administrator Lifetime Gold Member

    20,634
    181
    Apr 14, 1999
    Bismarck, North Dakota
    I don't see that those options really matter today or that they will matter much in the future. For desirability, the Muncie and the T10 are equal, so it doesn't matter. Same with points and HEI. Both work great so it again doesn't matter.
    Rarity doesn't matter. Desirability does.
    Compare Z28 to LT. LT is fluff. Z28 is performance, and it matters, rare or not.
     
  4. BonzoHansen

    BonzoHansen Administrator Lifetime Gold Member

    if it did matter those are easily reversible changes.
     
  5. Z28PILOT

    Z28PILOT Veteran Member Lifetime Gold Member

    2,015
    13
    Oct 8, 2009
    Emerald Isle , NC
    There were a lot less HEI units for 74 as it was a late Z28 addt. , but I don't think to matters at all to the rarity/value of the car and won't make much difference to most people either way.

    As mentioned above posts, it can be added easy enough .

    Heck ...I bought a 74 HEI in nice shape for 30 dollars ..LOL ....I was the only person interested

    I voted no .....doesn't matter ...at least to,me.:)

    Just a different part doing the same job. Same with my Warner M21 , I have had both and see little diff in the trannie.

    But I do like the BW M21 2:43 Low first gear better than the old Muncie 2:20 first for practical driving . It's spaced nicer.

    .....................................................................

    As a side note ......I did purchase a document that's kinda rare and important to us 1974 Camaro owners. It's a Service Supplement issued in FEBRUARY 1974. ...got it off eBay . It's an original , not a copy . from an estate sale .

    Published by GM Chevrolet Service News. FEB 74 Number 2 volume #46


    Entitled Camaro and Corvette Warner release and HEI system in 1974 Regular Chevrolet with 454 CID engine and Z28 Models .

    It covers TWO sections /items in particular.

    1) transmission and clutch. ....the change from Muncie to Warner Super T10

    2) section complete on the New Z28 HEI

    There is total 15 pages back and front , detailing the Service procedures , rebuilding both HEI and Warner M21 . Parts break down and wiring diagrams for the HEI and New T10 rebuild /overhaul procedures

    Also HEI diagnosis flow chart.....even diagnosis with oscilloscope illustrations , trouble shooting, chassis wiring pages. Photo s of actual parts being worked on.

    At some point .... I'll see about scanning this document and posting to the 74 Camaro only section.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2015
  6. zfool

    zfool Veteran Member

    485
    3
    May 19, 2014
    Rochester, MN
    Sounds like an interesting manual Pilot, does it give a PN for the metal spark plug wire tabs for the HEI? I know a few have questioned it in the past.

    I dont think it makes a difference at this time but it may in time, especially the more we learn about them. As for just making any 74 a HEI T-10 car that could be plausible if the production date is March or April at the earliest. Granted a few guys have cars earlier that sporadically had HEI but most likely didn't have BW T-10 due to the production start 3/74 with a production of 3,336 units. Then you have to find one from a 74 with the other associated gadgets that wont have matching numbers. If I saw a CLJ or code motor with a build date in 11/73 with a HEI I would start looking deeper. (BTW has anyone seen a CLJ coupled to a BW T-10?)

    Finding all the associated parts for the HEI is literally impossible not completely but you practically have to find a car and buy it, those parts are all but gone adding some to its desirability possibly.

    I've seen probably 2 with the correct parts for sale over the past year, many say they have all the original parts or its 100% correct but when and if you get pix its a diff story.

    If GM had shipped the first 3500 1970 Z28's with Cowl air boxes and were the only cars that had M-22's we would classify them differently because of the passage of time. 15-20 years ago people may have knocked them for having the small motor.

    Bottom line we needed some more 74 discussion :cool:
     
  7. Z28PILOT

    Z28PILOT Veteran Member Lifetime Gold Member

    2,015
    13
    Oct 8, 2009
    Emerald Isle , NC
    Sorry for the late reply ..... Just busy ..
    You are probably speaking of the long reach plug wire bracket for the HEI , one attached at each valve cover bolt . It held the larger HEI plug wires in place . Different animal than the common points wire piece .

    That part will be in the main counter parts catalog set from mid 70's , not the little AIM . Probably in the engine breakdown section under ignition. Got to have the parts catalog or micro fiche

    I don't know anybody with that set of parts books to even ask for help. I see those original GM sets of mid 70's parts catalogs like every dealer parts dept used to have on eBay . But they are EXPENSIVE !:eek:

    Probably one of the major car / parts collector guys on this site has a set . Maybe one of these fortunate souls would be so kind as to lend us poor 74 owners a hand and look up the part number....pretty please

    I'm not spending 500.00 to look up one part number ...LOL :D

    I m missing one of those brackets too , or rather I lost one :mad: , I ve been looking for years with no luck to replace it. Unless a orphaned 74 HEI Z28 motor complete is happened upon , I see no other way to get one , but make it. Lol ;)

    I may take one of mine to my cousin , he is a master machinist with every known fabrication device know to man , he restores old tractors. It's a simple item for him to duplicate out of raw metal . I think the little plastic finger pieces were used on other brackets and can be dug up.

    I ll be up at his shop this summer for a visit and I 'll take him one of my originals and leave it with him, see what can be done.

    Fred
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2015
  8. zfool

    zfool Veteran Member

    485
    3
    May 19, 2014
    Rochester, MN
    I have seen a couple old manuals for sale on CL that I should have got just to have them but I've got too much crap already but it seems I cant get enough, especially information wise.
    Every time I see a car with those clips I'm surprised. I actually saw where a guy had the black plastic 2 plug wire retainers slid over those offset brackets and it seemed to work. I had them on my 77 Monte Carlo, the clip folds over the top to retain the wires.

    Clarifying the 3336 production I was refering to was the total M-21's produced both BW and Muncie, probably close to a 50/50 split. Has anyone seen a M-20 WR in a 74 Z? I saw an article from 40 years ago that states the 4spd air cars came with a 3.42 rear, so that got me thinking about other trans possibilities.

    This site lists M-20's as Z28 trans options but its a Pontiac site :)

    http://www.pontiacpower.org/BW.htm
     
  9. twozs

    twozs Veteran Member

    8,418
    78
    Aug 5, 1999
    hopewell jct ny
    ive posted a few times the 73 assembly manual the speedometer gearing . it has a gear for a 15 inch tire and a 3.42 ( 3.471 ) rear (Z28 air cars ) . no other camaro had 15 inch tires ..[​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2015
  10. twozs

    twozs Veteran Member

    8,418
    78
    Aug 5, 1999
    hopewell jct ny
    my 73 is a 4 speed A/C car . it has its matching numbers 4 speed M20 trans . i have to look at the rear . it has some dirt on it .
     

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