stalled in hawaii

firephile · 12-31-2004, 02:11:00 AM

might be a longshot but i thought i'd ask anyway. i live in hawaii and own a '78 Z28 that just pooped on me. stalled at a stoplight(when it turned green) and wouldn't start again. it cranks but never turns over...lotsa gas, lotsa juice in the battery, sounds like starter is workin' fine...but just won't catch.

took it in and the mechanic says that there's "something wrong in the timing chain area"...saying it could be as simple as the chain ($500 fix) or my crank shaft could be destroyed or something...which (he says) would require an engine rebuild or replacement.

first of all, question about the problem. he said it could be the chain, gears, some "keyhole" thing that i didn't understand, or the crankshaft...but had to open it to check. i bought the car to learn, and i'm afraid i'm not QUITE confident enough dealing with that kind of thing, so i told them to open it up (labbor $170) which they haven't done yet 'cause it's new year's and i figure i can call them off (which is where you come in).

the engine PROBABLY has 200k miles on it. i say probably because the odometer's at 97k and it only goes up to 99,999.9...but of course my speedo/odeometer died well over 3k miles ago. i think it's improbable that it's only 100k.

should i stop them from doing this and just replace the engine? or pay them and hope it's just the timing chain? i could probably CHECK myself but that would require me towing it home...blah blah...and if it's NOT just the chain, towing it back out somewhere...

i can probably afford to spend ~$2k...but that's nto including shipping (yet another question for you rare ones out there)...anybody know someplace that has decent shipping rates to hawaii? EVERY frickin' shop excludes hawaii and alaska in their 'shipping information'...bastards.

OR, maybe a good engine rebuilder in hawaii?

it's my day driver. stock just about everything that i can see except edelbrock air filter, 600cfm edelbrock carb (1405), edelbrock torker II intake manifold. has a/c, most emissions stuff cut/plugged, muncie M21 4-speed....

that was long. but i'd appreciate hearing people's points of view on this.

thanks,
jess

gregh · 12-31-2004, 02:27:00 AM

The timing chain is a $25 set, both gears & the chain. Even a decent quality double roller set is under $60.
At 200K, I'd expect the stock chain to have died, no big deal. $60 for a roller setup, $25 for gaskets & 3-4 hours labor, $500 is a major rip off in my opinion.

If they can't diagnose a jumped chain without tearing the whole engine apart for $170(another rip off), I'd say find another shop.
Or, go buy a $100 Craftsman socket & wrench set, a $20 harmonic balancer puller & a $15 Chilton manual & do it yourself.
If the book doesn't tell you everything you need to know, the people here will help.

Smokin70SS · 12-31-2004, 02:44:00 AM

Alright, a Hawaiian 2nd Genner. Alot of my family lives near you in Kaneohe. Always love visiting there.

To help with you problem. Did the shop check the normal stuff like if your getting spark and fuel? Maybe too much fuel and it's flooding the engine?

It could very well be something with the timing chain. Chain could have skipped some teeth. I think some of the teeth GM originally used where nylon and would break of after alot of use. And yes $500 is a big rip for a timing set replacement. Especially on cars like ours where it's very easy to do.
The key thing he was talking about is the little piece of metal that holds the gear in place on the nose of the crankshaft. I've never seen it happen but I'm pretty sure it's possible the a key can eat up the metal of the nose and screwed up your timing. If that happened it could exspensive to fix.

Theres actually alot of stuff that could happen but make sure the shop started with the simple stuff. Like I said, make sure you have spark and the right amount of fuel going into the engine.

[This message has been edited by Smokin71RSSS (edited December 31, 2004).]

gregh · 12-31-2004, 02:49:00 AM

Here is a walkthrough of a timing cover replacement, changing the chain while you have it open is just a few more minutes.

These guys took an entire day but it was in a newer Corvette & the serpentine belt system complicates things a lot, they also changed the entire oilpan gasket.
I recently tore my 81Z28 engine down & it took me less than 90 minutes to strip the waterpump, timing cover, chain, intake & heads off.
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...eak/index.html

rustbucket79 · 12-31-2004, 04:50:00 AM

have them pull the distributor cap while you watch and with a socket wrench on the crank sprocket rotate the engine backwards until the rotor moves then forwards. Lots of turning with little or no rotor movement = bad timing set.
Also, with the timing mark on the harmonic lined up with the timing tab on the front cover, the rotor should be lined up with either # 1 or #6 plug wire, if it's way off there's another indicator of a skipped chain. If everything here specs out good you have an ignition problem such as a bad coil, rotor, cap or pickup coil in the distributor.
Hope it's a cheap fix! I know in Hawaii everything is expensive, that's what you get for living offshore of the mainland in paradise.

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12-31-2004, 06:33:00 PM

Or the timing gear disentegrated (not as likely after 200K miles of working). If you has oil pressure on cranking then this is NOT a problem. I would check for spark and see if there is any. I had a 305 do exactly what you describe and it turned out to be the pickup coil had a broken wire like rust mentioned.

sikzdrivr · 12-31-2004, 07:27:00 PM

Could also be a bad ignition module (if your not getting spark). Did you try starting your car again after it had a chance to cool down? Sometimes they only act up once they get hot.

If it is ignition related, the 12v source wire going to your coil could of crapped out also. It's easy to check by running a patch wire from the + terminal on your battery to your coil. Tap into it up close to the distibutor, it's marked.

[This message has been edited by sikzdrivr (edited December 31, 2004).]

DE Jailor · 01-01-2005, 10:58:00 AM

The Timing chain is a distinct possibility! But your discriptions sounds to me like you have a bad ignition module in the distributor. I had the same thing happen to me. Pull the cap the rotor, it looks like a rectangular block with plugs on each end easy fix I would try this first try this link

http://www.partsamerica.com/PartDetails.asp?SourceArea=&SourcePage=SEARCHRESUL TS&MfrCode=ACD&MfrPartNumber=D1906&PartType=194&PT Set=C

camarocarman · 01-01-2005, 06:22:00 PM

CHECK SPARK PLUGS/WIRES and one other ofter overlooked thing. CHECK the ***"Electronic Control Module"*** (also called ignition control module)It's a little wafer looking/angled computer chip in the distributor. It's underneath the cap/rotor. You can't miss it. It has two wires plugged into it on one side, and two on the other. You can take it out, go to most any parts places and have them test it. This exact thing happened to me long long ago on my '78 LT. Same exact thing. Went to crank it one day, and no fire, but everything else worked. I would check this first of all, WAYYY before any timing chain work.

CA72RS · 01-01-2005, 10:56:00 PM

200,000 miles?? It's probably about time to rebuild the motor. Don't waste money on a worn out motor. I think Kragen has rebuilt short blocks available for about $1000 with core trade in. You can also get nice new aluminum heads complete and assembled for about $1200.

sikzdrivr · 01-02-2005, 12:18:00 AM

Quote:

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by CA72RS:
200,000 miles?? It's probably about time to rebuild the motor. Don't waste money on a worn out motor. I think Kragen has rebuilt short blocks available for about $1000 with core trade in. You can also get nice new aluminum heads complete and assembled for about $1200.

</font>

I have to disagree. If it's not broken why fix it (if the internals are good). Small blocks can and will run waaaaaay past 200,000 and stay healthy and get decent milage if there treated right. You can still beat the crap out of them and they live. If your looking at it from a performance veiwpoint and want more power thats a different story. My dad's 94 4.3 Astro just wont die and it has almost 500,000 kms on it. It's a stocker and it can still smoke a tire

And I've had the best luck with very high milage 350's and 4.3's.

Bondo79 · 01-02-2005, 01:33:00 AM

Quote:

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by CA72RS:
200,000 miles?? It's probably about time to rebuild the motor. Don't waste money on a worn out motor. I think Kragen has rebuilt short blocks available for about $1000 with core trade in. You can also get nice new aluminum heads complete and assembled for about $1200.

</font>

Ditto what sikzdrivr said. If compression is good and the internals are in decent shape, I would feel better about a worn stock motor over one of those cheap thrown together "reman" motors. Those cheap parts store engines are lucky to go 100,000.

firephile · 01-03-2005, 03:52:00 AM

WOW, thank you so much for all the replies guys. sorry for not checking...holidays...i've been...drunk for most of it

i'll just...go through these.

gregh, the dude at the shop did what rustbucket79 suggested; pulling the distributor cap and turning the crank manually and that's what he used to diagnose that it was "something in the timing" as he put it. one problem with it at the moment is i had to go to work at the moment and couldn't exactly get it towed home. got lotsa tools, got my chilton's, no idea what a harmonic balancer is but i know where to find one...but the problem is, if i had it towed home, ripped it myself, and found that it was more complicated than just a chain...i'd have to tow it again and i'd be wasting more money...so i made the decision to take it to a shop...one who my cousins (4th gen camaro) really like and who's been very good to them. At the moment the shop is about 12 miles from my house...that'll be an expensive tow. and thanks for the link

Smokin', thanks for the 'key thing' explanation. as i've said before, first car

as for the spark/fuel...i didn't check it myself (how do you do that with no tools but a rag on the side of the road?) but the guy i talked to knew a lot more than i do and mentioned MORE than a few things he tried that i didn't understand (and hence, don't remember, sorry).

73454/sikzdrivr, the mechanic tried it after it'd been sitting at the shop for about 6 hours and it did the same thing it did to me. i'm a little confused, though (please forgive me if this is just retarded) but doesn't the fact that the engine DOES turn when i hit the ignition mean i'm getting spark? by 'engine turns' i mean it sounds like it's turning and the fan attatched to the (i think) camshaft pulley spins...am i missing something dumb? sikz, i'll try and check the wire to the coil if i get a chance, thanks.

DE Jailor, thanks for the link. again, if i get a chance i'll try it (i don't imagine the shop'll appreciate me 'using their shop' to save myself money....)

camarocarman, that would be AWESOME if that's all it were. i'll check if i can.

CA72RS, i AM thinkin' about it. and thinkin' about an upgrade perhaps...but everything i want to 'buy' has quite a hefty shipping charge.

sikz(again)/Bondo, you give me hope

BUT, while watching the distributor with the cover off, the mechanic said that it was spinning very erratically meaning that it "couldn't get compression" although it would occassionally get it breifly, but then whack out again. do you think it would be worth just rebuilding my motor if i could afford the time? assuming i can't afford a new motor (in which case i'd probalby attempt to rebuild this one myself and drop it in some other hotness on four wheels).

come to think of it i'd probably bail on the core trade in to rebuild this one. be a fun project if my ride to work didn't depend on it!

again, thank you much for all your input. and i WILL check back more often.

BusDriver · 01-03-2005, 12:01:00 PM

if the dist was spinning erratically when he was turning the motor, sounds like timing set.The thing should turn smoothly with the turning of the motor.

$500 is a bit much for just that though, its not hard to get to and even a good double-roller timing set is the mentioned ~$50-60. Not more than 1.5-2 hours for a good mechanic, at MOST. More like 1 if hes done a few dozen of em. I'd probably take 4 ha.

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'03 Yellow S-10 4.3L - "The Bus"
'75 LT in progress again...