5 or 6 Speed Power Ratings

PhilM · 02-20-2006, 01:05:13 AM

Which one is a better choice for a high horse power camaro? And recommends on a brand or where to get one. I already did the Richmond 6 speed and there it sits on the garage floor, broke again. So definetly not a richmond again.

Thanks.

SHANE 73Z · 02-20-2006, 02:14:04 AM

Phillip,

What power level does it need to handle and how streetable???

Off the shelf the TKO600 (600 lb/ft) is probably the best bang for the buck and its available with 2 different OD gears.

I know that D&D have a t56 that has reworked internals & think its rated for 650 lb/ft. I thnk the aftermarket t56 is rated around 450 lb/ft

There are other options but I am unsure as to how streetable they are. Heres some good material for the Tremec stuff:
http://www.classicchevy5speed.com/
http://ddperformance.com/

Shane

Goat · 02-20-2006, 08:58:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Mcgrath

Which one is a better choice for a high horse power camaro? And recommends on a brand or where to get one. I already did the Richmond 6 speed and there it sits on the garage floor, broke again. So definetly not a richmond again.

Thanks.

Can you give some specifics on how/what broke on your Richmond? Just curious because I run mine pretty hard and have not had any problems...yet.

PhilM · 02-20-2006, 11:49:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goat

Can you give some specifics on how/what broke on your Richmond? Just curious because I run mine pretty hard and have not had any problems...yet.

5th Gear. Wont go into it. Last time it broke, it was the 1 st gear cluster.

After shifitng a t-56 and then the richmond, it is hard to back to the richmond. Just my personal prefrence.

PhilM · 02-20-2006, 11:55:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHANE 73Z

Phillip,

What power level does it need to handle and how streetable???

Off the shelf the TKO600 (600 lb/ft) is probably the best bang for the buck and its available with 2 different OD gears.

I know that D&D have a t56 that has reworked internals & think its rated for 650 lb/ft. I thnk the aftermarket t56 is rated around 450 lb/ft

There are other options but I am unsure as to how streetable they are. Heres some good material for the Tremec stuff:
http://www.classicchevy5speed.com/
http://ddperformance.com/

Shane

Shane,

It will honestly be around 1000 hp and torque will be a little above 600. How much, I don't know till it gets dyno'd. I am looking for something that is not a full race trans yet not a total pos either. What made you choose a 5 over a 6 speed? Streetability is a major concern, however I know there must be some give and take.

JodysTrans · 02-20-2006, 12:01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Mcgrath

Shane,

It will honestly be around 1000 hp and torque will be a little above 600. How much, I don't know till it gets dyno'd. I am looking for something that is not a full race trans yet not a total pos either. What made you choose a 5 over a 6 speed? Streetability is a major concern, however I know there must be some give and take.

With that kind of power, you will need to check out G-Force Transmissions.

BlownBigBlock · 02-20-2006, 12:24:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JodysTrans

With that kind of power, you will need to check out G-Force Transmissions.

Jody,

Are the Jody in Kutztown Pennsylvania? If so - we've down business before. I bought an M22 off of you for my LS7 vette a couple years back. Along with sending a few others that have come into the shop looking for 4 speed parts.

Just wanted to say welcome to the board.

JodysTrans · 02-20-2006, 01:46:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlownBigBlock

Jody,

Are the Jody in Kutztown Pennsylvania? If so - we've down business before. I bought an M22 off of you for my LS7 vette a couple years back. Along with sending a few others that have come into the shop looking for 4 speed parts.

Just wanted to say welcome to the board.

Yes, I am the "Jody" from Jody's Transmissions near Kutztown; actually in Bowers, PA. I am presently living in Reading, but still work out of the same garage in Bowers, where we did business.

Your Babies look killer, I like the "baby bottles" picture! Could you send me some more pics of the Vette and your Camaro? I have quite a few pictures of customers and their rides on the garage wall and both of yours would be a great addition. Do you still have the Vette?

Thanks for the welcoming to this great forum, I see a lot of familiar names here already!

SHANE 73Z · 02-20-2006, 03:30:16 PM

Phillip,

My big deciding factor on the trans was the available ratios/funds available to do the swap. I was in the market for a new 5 speed or a takeout (OEM) 6 speed.

The stock ratios in a takeout 6 speed are not very favorable to our needs the deep first gear ratio dictates a too shallow rear end gear to use the second overdrive. With a 3.XX first gear in them you would lean towards, a 3.42 or 3.73 rear gear, but to use the .5 OD 6th gear you would want to use a 4.10+ rear gear.

On the aftermarket t56 you get a 2.XX first gear ratio and a .6X 6th gear which would work well with a 4.10 rear. With a Tremec TKO600 (3.27 1st - .68 5th) you get a the same gear spread but over 5 gears instead of 6. You can also get the TKO600 with a .86 overdrive as well.

All these ratios are coming from memory but you can read up on the links I posted.

Hope this helps,
Shane

Todd80Z28 · 02-20-2006, 04:43:19 PM

Quote:

With that kind of power, you will need to check out G-Force Transmissions.

Yep. I wouldn't trust a T56 or TKO to reliably hold that sort of power for any real length of time, particularly in a race environment- which, I assume, is the only reason you have so much power in the first place.

Hurst - Jeff · 02-20-2006, 08:27:50 PM

I am not suggesting that you install a TKO behind that motor but here is some TKO information that you may find helpful. I posted this on another website where a similar question came up.
1000 HP capabilty yet streetable is a touhg one.

Regarding the torque capacity of the Tremec TKO transmisions:
Tremec rates the TKO600 to handle 600 ft.lbs of torque. With that said, we know of guys that are running high horsepower cars 700+HP with the TKO's and they have not run into any problems with the Tremec handling the HP. I regularly talk with the guys at Tremec (last time was today to re-confirm this info) and ask them if they have heard of any TKO failures due to high horsepower applications and to date the answer has been "no". With that said, I am sure that someone will eventually break a TKO due to a high horsepower. It is posible that someone has broke one but I have not heard of it yet. When you play in the high horsepower arena eventually something will give - be it a clutch, driveshaft, rear end, or TKO transmission.
During my call today, the Tremec guy did tell me that they ran into a case where a TKO input shaft was twisted. The transmission did not fail but the owner noticed that the input shaft was slightly twisted when he was changing his clutch. The car that did the twisting was mid-9 second race car with a 680 HP blown motor, 10.5" slick tires and that launches at 5800 RPM's. This car is exclusively a race car and the input shaft twisting occured after a season of racing (approxiamtely 100 passes). Tremec is currently testing the input shaft to see why it twisted. This is the only report that Tremec has receievd from a TKO owner since the TKO was released 2 years ago.

The Tremec gig testing was done on a static gig where the output shaft was secured and the input shaft was hit with increasingly higher torque loads. The gig ended up breaking at 1400 ft./lbs of torque while the transmision was undamaged.

The one negative issue on the TKO's that we have seen is high RPM shifting at 6500 RPM's and higher. The TKO does not seem to want to shift properly at these levels. This is not a shifter issue, rather it is a transmission internals issue.

The bottom line is that the TKO is an excellent and very strong street & strip transmission that is suitbale for most of our applications - even the high horsepower applications.

The cases where the TKO may not be the first choice is if you have a dedicated race car where you need to be shifting at 6500+ RPM's.

I hope this helps.

Kamikaze · 02-21-2006, 10:04:12 PM

Phillip,

It amazes me that you trashed a Richmond 6-speed! I've had that tranny behind some serious torque and high hits of N2O through a blown motor and have never come across a situation where it's failed!

I've had the older Doug Nash 4+1 Five speeds that it was based on, now over 25 years and still going!

I'm not doubting your problems with it but it is hard to imagine that the Richmond could not stand up to the abuse!

The TKO's are strong but seem to be limited in what they can handle. As Josy stated, the G-Force is about the strongest tranny I could see that would work and that's a purpose designed and built racing tranny!

How exactly did you break the Richmond???

PhilM · 02-22-2006, 12:21:04 PM

Thanks for your help Jeff. I now have a direction in which to look at.

Kamikaze,

it just broke. It was a great tranny on street tires till I bolted on a set of et streets. I don't know what serious hp and torque is, but a 450 hp 383 with a 250 hp 10k rpm plate broke it the first time. Went to 5th gear, and there it stayed. No power shifting or anything. It did give me a mid 10 second slip before it broke.

The second time was behind a 391 that made about 650 hp. It broke on drag radials on the street.

Don't get me wrong, for a mid level hp street car, its ok. I don't hate the tranny by any means, but I know there is no way it will handle the power that I am making now. I had fun with it and dont regret buying it.

I know it is not my driving or the setup. I pulled a m-20 that I had ran for about 50 or so passes and replaced it with the richmond. I dial indiacted the bellhousing and everything else remained the same.

Kamikaze · 02-24-2006, 04:09:41 PM

Phillip,

Thanks for the reply! I was so amazed to hear you broke it! I have one that's been beat for a few years behind a 750 HP, and 675 ft lb Big block but it's been road raced and not dragged. Maybe the shock of the torque grabbing though slicks were just too much???

So what you gonna do with the Richmond? Did it cost alot to fix last time?

PhilM · 02-24-2006, 04:28:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamikaze

Phillip,

Thanks for the reply! I was so amazed to hear you broke it! I have one that's been beat for a few years behind a 750 HP, and 675 ft lb Big block but it's been road raced and not dragged. Maybe the shock of the torque grabbing though slicks were just too much???

So what you gonna do with the Richmond? Did it cost alot to fix last time?

I beat the snot out of it when I had the car set up for road racing. As soon as I put et streets on it, it went south. Got it fixed and was happy, then I got the notion to put it back on the track and then whamo again.

I will say that at the time ( Late 90's), Richmonds customer service was second to none. All it cost me was 150 plus shipping both times one way. They also updated it both times. I guess its because I bought it in '94. The second time the parts list was two pages long.

I was told by the tech guy that it was breaking because of the loading on the mainshaft.

I had a doug nash 4+1 as well. That is the reason why i bought the Richmond. It was way stronger in my opinion.

Mabey todays Richmonds are better. Could be. I don't want to get rid of it because it is still a very good unit.

02-20-2006, 01:05:13 AM	#1
PhilM Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: Cameron Park, CA Posts: 1,272	5 or 6 Speed Power Ratings Which one is a better choice for a high horse power camaro? And recommends on a brand or where to get one. I already did the Richmond 6 speed and there it sits on the garage floor, broke again. So definetly not a richmond again. Thanks.

02-20-2006, 02:14:04 AM	#2
SHANE 73Z Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Meadow Lands, PA Posts: 2,781	Phillip, What power level does it need to handle and how streetable??? Off the shelf the TKO600 (600 lb/ft) is probably the best bang for the buck and its available with 2 different OD gears. I know that D&D have a t56 that has reworked internals & think its rated for 650 lb/ft. I thnk the aftermarket t56 is rated around 450 lb/ft There are other options but I am unsure as to how streetable they are. Heres some good material for the Tremec stuff: http://www.classicchevy5speed.com/ http://ddperformance.com/ Shane __________________ 73z - 406sbc 430hp/475tq - TKO 600 - Torsen T2/3.73 - 12" Discs - 16" Minilite replicas - Homebrewed suspension - Mucho chassis bracing - Lots of fiberglass - Not much interior Maybe it will see an Auto-X someday Last edited by SHANE 73Z : 02-20-2006 at 02:16:10 AM.

02-20-2006, 03:30:16 PM	#9
SHANE 73Z Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Meadow Lands, PA Posts: 2,781	Phillip, My big deciding factor on the trans was the available ratios/funds available to do the swap. I was in the market for a new 5 speed or a takeout (OEM) 6 speed. The stock ratios in a takeout 6 speed are not very favorable to our needs the deep first gear ratio dictates a too shallow rear end gear to use the second overdrive. With a 3.XX first gear in them you would lean towards, a 3.42 or 3.73 rear gear, but to use the .5 OD 6th gear you would want to use a 4.10+ rear gear. On the aftermarket t56 you get a 2.XX first gear ratio and a .6X 6th gear which would work well with a 4.10 rear. With a Tremec TKO600 (3.27 1st - .68 5th) you get a the same gear spread but over 5 gears instead of 6. You can also get the TKO600 with a .86 overdrive as well. All these ratios are coming from memory but you can read up on the links I posted. Hope this helps, Shane __________________ 73z - 406sbc 430hp/475tq - TKO 600 - Torsen T2/3.73 - 12" Discs - 16" Minilite replicas - Homebrewed suspension - Mucho chassis bracing - Lots of fiberglass - Not much interior Maybe it will see an Auto-X someday

02-20-2006, 08:27:50 PM	#11
Hurst - Jeff Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Encinitas, CA USA Posts: 375	I am not suggesting that you install a TKO behind that motor but here is some TKO information that you may find helpful. I posted this on another website where a similar question came up. 1000 HP capabilty yet streetable is a touhg one. Regarding the torque capacity of the Tremec TKO transmisions: Tremec rates the TKO600 to handle 600 ft.lbs of torque. With that said, we know of guys that are running high horsepower cars 700+HP with the TKO's and they have not run into any problems with the Tremec handling the HP. I regularly talk with the guys at Tremec (last time was today to re-confirm this info) and ask them if they have heard of any TKO failures due to high horsepower applications and to date the answer has been "no". With that said, I am sure that someone will eventually break a TKO due to a high horsepower. It is posible that someone has broke one but I have not heard of it yet. When you play in the high horsepower arena eventually something will give - be it a clutch, driveshaft, rear end, or TKO transmission. During my call today, the Tremec guy did tell me that they ran into a case where a TKO input shaft was twisted. The transmission did not fail but the owner noticed that the input shaft was slightly twisted when he was changing his clutch. The car that did the twisting was mid-9 second race car with a 680 HP blown motor, 10.5" slick tires and that launches at 5800 RPM's. This car is exclusively a race car and the input shaft twisting occured after a season of racing (approxiamtely 100 passes). Tremec is currently testing the input shaft to see why it twisted. This is the only report that Tremec has receievd from a TKO owner since the TKO was released 2 years ago. The Tremec gig testing was done on a static gig where the output shaft was secured and the input shaft was hit with increasingly higher torque loads. The gig ended up breaking at 1400 ft./lbs of torque while the transmision was undamaged. The one negative issue on the TKO's that we have seen is high RPM shifting at 6500 RPM's and higher. The TKO does not seem to want to shift properly at these levels. This is not a shifter issue, rather it is a transmission internals issue. The bottom line is that the TKO is an excellent and very strong street & strip transmission that is suitbale for most of our applications - even the high horsepower applications. The cases where the TKO may not be the first choice is if you have a dedicated race car where you need to be shifting at 6500+ RPM's. I hope this helps. __________________ Jeff Mortenson Hurst Driveline Conversions www.hurst-drivelines.com 760-438-2244 jeff@hurst-drivelines.com "Specializing in Tremec TKO & T56 Magnum overdrive conversion kits for Camaros" "Number 1 in customer service!"

02-21-2006, 10:04:12 PM	#12
Kamikaze Lifetime Gold Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: So. Lake Tahoe CA. USA Posts: 3,204	Phillip, It amazes me that you trashed a Richmond 6-speed! I've had that tranny behind some serious torque and high hits of N2O through a blown motor and have never come across a situation where it's failed! I've had the older Doug Nash 4+1 Five speeds that it was based on, now over 25 years and still going! I'm not doubting your problems with it but it is hard to imagine that the Richmond could not stand up to the abuse! The TKO's are strong but seem to be limited in what they can handle. As Josy stated, the G-Force is about the strongest tranny I could see that would work and that's a purpose designed and built racing tranny! How exactly did you break the Richmond??? __________________ Vehicles were made to be driven! Classic is cool but stock is boring!

02-22-2006, 12:21:04 PM	#13
PhilM Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: Cameron Park, CA Posts: 1,272	Thanks for your help Jeff. I now have a direction in which to look at. Kamikaze, it just broke. It was a great tranny on street tires till I bolted on a set of et streets. I don't know what serious hp and torque is, but a 450 hp 383 with a 250 hp 10k rpm plate broke it the first time. Went to 5th gear, and there it stayed. No power shifting or anything. It did give me a mid 10 second slip before it broke. The second time was behind a 391 that made about 650 hp. It broke on drag radials on the street. Don't get me wrong, for a mid level hp street car, its ok. I don't hate the tranny by any means, but I know there is no way it will handle the power that I am making now. I had fun with it and dont regret buying it. I know it is not my driving or the setup. I pulled a m-20 that I had ran for about 50 or so passes and replaced it with the richmond. I dial indiacted the bellhousing and everything else remained the same.

02-24-2006, 04:09:41 PM	#14
Kamikaze Lifetime Gold Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: So. Lake Tahoe CA. USA Posts: 3,204	Phillip, Thanks for the reply! I was so amazed to hear you broke it! I have one that's been beat for a few years behind a 750 HP, and 675 ft lb Big block but it's been road raced and not dragged. Maybe the shock of the torque grabbing though slicks were just too much??? So what you gonna do with the Richmond? Did it cost alot to fix last time? __________________ Vehicles were made to be driven! Classic is cool but stock is boring!

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes	Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode	Rate This Thread: