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Old 03-26-2011, 05:44:21 PM   #1
Tirefryer
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cheap aluminum or Vortec Heads

Ok, I decided to do a top end on my 81z, It is a stock bottom end on second rebuild with maybe 4K on the second rebuild and 882 heads. I am looking at the Scoggin vortec kit, already ground for a 525 lift cam. My other option is the Pro Comp aluminum heads with airgap intake to keep me in the same budget range as the vortec kit from Scoggiin.. Which would give me the best bang for the buck? Also which Cam would you suggest for each application.
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Old 03-26-2011, 06:28:45 PM   #2
DesmoEd
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Vortec's or Edelbrock E-streets for bargin alum heads, I would not even consider Procomp
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Old 03-26-2011, 08:05:10 PM   #3
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[quote=DesmoEd]Vortec's or Edelbrock E-streets for bargin alum heads, I would not even consider Procomp[/QUOTE

Are the Eddy's worth the extra over the Soggin vortecs? Do they have room to grow in the futurE if I upgrade to say a 383 short block?
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Old 03-26-2011, 08:50:35 PM   #4
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[quote=Tirefryer]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesmoEd
Vortec's or Edelbrock E-streets for bargin alum heads, I would not even consider Procomp[/QUOTE

Are the Eddy's worth the extra over the Soggin vortecs? Do they have room to grow in the futurE if I upgrade to say a 383 short block?



The Edelbrock's have more room to grow and are 60lbs lighter. They have 185cc runners and would work on a 383 but I'd want afr 195's............

Vortec's are good on a 355 but too small for a 383.
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1973 Camaro RS - 355ci, 10.1-1, Perf RPM heads, Howards 280/292 HR, 1.52, Holley 300-36, Holley HP650 DP, MSD, Hedman, M-20, 3:73 posi
1969 Corvette - 360ci, 10.25-1, Perf RPM heads, Comp XR276HR, 1.52, RPM air gap, Holley HP750 DP, MSD, Hooker, TKO600RR, 3:73 posi
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Old 03-26-2011, 11:10:49 PM   #5
tigerbake
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You can get some Dart Iron Eagles pretty cheap and they flow well and are a quality product. If it's just a street car I am not sure I would spend the extra cash on aluminum unless you had a deal
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Old 03-26-2011, 11:30:05 PM   #6
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I've got the e street heads for my Z28, I cleaned them up a bit and they are great for the money. You can see the quality difference is way better than those off-shore heads. Stick with products made in the US and you know you have good stuff.
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Old 03-27-2011, 07:34:03 AM   #7
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So far e streets sound like the way to go. Also this will be a strip/street car. Does anyone have recommendations on a cam with this combo?
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Old 03-27-2011, 07:58:21 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tirefryer
So far e streets sound like the way to go. Also this will be a strip/street car. Does anyone have recommendations on a cam with this combo?

I would go Alum for your application of drag/ street. At some point you may want to go bigger cubes and those heads will work fine in both. Your Cam choices are many but it depends on where the motor is going to run 99% of the time. A good street Cam should be better than race Cam for dual purpose so take your time on feedback here. Lot's of guys run this type of setup and should have solid ideas.

That weight drop on front end will be nice also and adding an under 200 Alum rad also helps.
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Old 03-27-2011, 11:27:33 AM   #9
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I would beg to disagree with DesmoEd about Vortecs being too small for a 383. The 383 in my old '75 shop 'Burban was a real budget build. 400 Crank offset ground for old 327 small journal rods, Silvo-Lite pistons, genuine 'moly' ringset, a Lunati cam with some no-name 1:6 roller rockers and a used HEI and a used Performer RPM ....the Vortecs were bone stock except for a workbench back-grind on all the valve backsides, ghetto-grind, no-name Z/28 $35 springs and a dremel-done smoothing of the sharp ridge under the valve seats. On an old Mustang water dyno it belted out 447 HP and min 400lb ft torque from 3200 through 5000 RPM. We would have been happy with a solid 375 HP. I don't recall the cam specs..it was something I had sitting around. The engine idled at 750, pulled 15" vac and the power brakes were quite happy. Vortec heads ROCK. They are seriously under-rated and respond very well to really simple tricks. Later on we pulled the heads, did a full port job with intake matching, small radius work, thinned and profiled valve guides, chamber work, port work. Too much time. We got a lousy 18 HP after 16 hrs work. Now more cam might have found even more power, but at that point the cam would have been crummy in a big fat truck. The heads are now on the 350 in my Blazer and I have more HP than the diffs can handle. I'd use GM's on everything unless I get a smoking deal on quality Aluminum heads. Horsepower, flat torque curves, cheap to work on, 150,000 mile durability..GM hit a home run.
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Old 03-27-2011, 05:53:30 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikefixr
I would beg to disagree with DesmoEd about Vortecs being too small for a 383. The 383 in my old '75 shop 'Burban was a real budget build. 400 Crank offset ground for old 327 small journal rods, Silvo-Lite pistons, genuine 'moly' ringset, a Lunati cam with some no-name 1:6 roller rockers and a used HEI and a used Performer RPM ....the Vortecs were bone stock except for a workbench back-grind on all the valve backsides, ghetto-grind, no-name Z/28 $35 springs and a dremel-done smoothing of the sharp ridge under the valve seats. On an old Mustang water dyno it belted out 447 HP and min 400lb ft torque from 3200 through 5000 RPM. We would have been happy with a solid 375 HP. I don't recall the cam specs..it was something I had sitting around. The engine idled at 750, pulled 15" vac and the power brakes were quite happy. Vortec heads ROCK. They are seriously under-rated and respond very well to really simple tricks. Later on we pulled the heads, did a full port job with intake matching, small radius work, thinned and profiled valve guides, chamber work, port work. Too much time. We got a lousy 18 HP after 16 hrs work. Now more cam might have found even more power, but at that point the cam would have been crummy in a big fat truck. The heads are now on the 350 in my Blazer and I have more HP than the diffs can handle. I'd use GM's on everything unless I get a smoking deal on quality Aluminum heads. Horsepower, flat torque curves, cheap to work on, 150,000 mile durability..GM hit a home run.


Not much point in putting small valve 170cc heads on a 383 - maybe in a 4x4 or truck application where you are looking for max tq at 2800-3000rpm - but not in something thats gonna see some rpm.


Imagine how much the Vortecs are giving up to a set of AFR195's
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1973 Camaro RS - 355ci, 10.1-1, Perf RPM heads, Howards 280/292 HR, 1.52, Holley 300-36, Holley HP650 DP, MSD, Hedman, M-20, 3:73 posi
1969 Corvette - 360ci, 10.25-1, Perf RPM heads, Comp XR276HR, 1.52, RPM air gap, Holley HP750 DP, MSD, Hooker, TKO600RR, 3:73 posi
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Old 03-27-2011, 08:32:55 PM   #11
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The E-street heads are pretty close to the cost of a set of upgraded Vortecs. Plus they take a standard bolt pattern intake and don't require self-aligning rockers. If you need to buy this stuff anyway, doesn't make much difference. If you're trying to reuse a lot of what you already have (or buying cheap used parts), it makes a considerable difference in the overall cost of the project.

I doubt E-street heads save more than about 40 lbs. overall vs. factory cast iron heads, but I'll take a 40 lb. weight savings if I can get it cheap.
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Old 03-27-2011, 08:58:29 PM   #12
Bikefixr
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You can't compare Vortecs to AFR 195's . The original post was asking about Vortecs compared to CHEAP aluminum heads. I can get what...2+ sets of Vortecs for the set of AFR's? The AFR's are a high-effort street/race head, the Vortecs are a budget performance street head. I doubt AFR's are even on the radar of the original poster. But as for Vortecs not working on a 383...the small valves aren't shrouded by the chamber wall or the bore. With some minor tweaking they can flow some serious air. Horsepower per dollar, they blow about everything else away. ( I'm not talking buying used AFR's etc..I'm talking new in the box GM vs New in the box anything else.) People have found so many low-no $ tricks to enhance these heads that the cost benefit gets even better. 2-3 yrs ago Chevy High Performance did a Vortec 383 and they pushed it well past 500 HP. The base is there, it's a matter of unlocking the extra performance without a ton of $. I could make the same comparison, Vortecs compared to the RHS ported canted valve, raised runner DART heads I have on my smallblack 427, but it isn't a fair comparo. The keyword was; cheap. Vortecs will feed his 350/383 well enough for street use.

Last edited by Bikefixr : 03-27-2011 at 09:04:22 PM.
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Old 03-27-2011, 09:53:18 PM   #13
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I am using a cam with 520 lift and 234 duration @0.050 with the e streets. These heads have springs that are good to 550 lift but I have heard that you are really pushing it going that high. I have been lucky so far with my combo but am using a healthy torque converter, rollers and needed better than stock 3.42's in the rear.
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Old 03-27-2011, 10:56:06 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikefixr
You can't compare Vortecs to AFR 195's . The original post was asking about Vortecs compared to CHEAP aluminum heads. I can get what...2+ sets of Vortecs for the set of AFR's? The AFR's are a high-effort street/race head, the Vortecs are a budget performance street head. I doubt AFR's are even on the radar of the original poster. But as for Vortecs not working on a 383...the small valves aren't shrouded by the chamber wall or the bore. With some minor tweaking they can flow some serious air. Horsepower per dollar, they blow about everything else away. ( I'm not talking buying used AFR's etc..I'm talking new in the box GM vs New in the box anything else.) People have found so many low-no $ tricks to enhance these heads that the cost benefit gets even better. 2-3 yrs ago Chevy High Performance did a Vortec 383 and they pushed it well past 500 HP. The base is there, it's a matter of unlocking the extra performance without a ton of $. I could make the same comparison, Vortecs compared to the RHS ported canted valve, raised runner DART heads I have on my smallblack 427, but it isn't a fair comparo. The keyword was; cheap. Vortecs will feed his 350/383 well enough for street use.



you are absolutely right, I did not say it could not be done. I just don't see the why part

Compare the GMPP crates:

HT 383 has vortecs and a hyd roller cam - its rated 340hp/435tq and made for truck applications and towing


ZZ383 has 210cc fast burns, more cam, and is good for 425hp/460tq.




here's a solution - run vortecs on your 355 and if/when it becomes 383 time then you sell the vortecs and buy some decent 195-210 cc heads
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1973 Camaro RS - 355ci, 10.1-1, Perf RPM heads, Howards 280/292 HR, 1.52, Holley 300-36, Holley HP650 DP, MSD, Hedman, M-20, 3:73 posi
1969 Corvette - 360ci, 10.25-1, Perf RPM heads, Comp XR276HR, 1.52, RPM air gap, Holley HP750 DP, MSD, Hooker, TKO600RR, 3:73 posi

Last edited by DesmoEd : 03-27-2011 at 10:58:08 PM.
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Old 03-28-2011, 12:54:11 AM   #15
1980RS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesmoEd
Not much point in putting small valve 170cc heads on a 383 - maybe in a 4x4 or truck application where you are looking for max tq at 2800-3000rpm - but not in something thats gonna see some rpm.

Ask the guys who have to race legal in NHRA stocker classes with small CC heads. The run those engines to 7 to 8K and have no trouble a all with small cc heads. There is also something that can be said also and that is the velocity that a 170cc head will have over a 210cc head. This is the same theory that is on BB chevy heads, Oval over Sq. port. Ya the big head flows more air but that is not the whole story. A Vortec head is one of the best production heads GM has ever made and it uses race tech that makes them great. I have seen guys take 400 SB chevys with stock vortecs and make 500 lbs. tq. at 5500 rpm and tq. moves the car. Horsepower in my book just makes MPH. I will say it again if you have you're fancy aftermarket big cc head that flows 250 cfm and I have a vortec head with 170cc runners that flows 250 cfm I will beat you at the track or on the street.

Like Joe Sherman said "If the head cc is too small just add more cam duration" that makes rpm not more intake runner CC.
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