Hi all, some road race/track day/autoX questions

[rcr_x]

Hey! I just got my first camaro in exchange for some work on my friend's car and I'm wondering if you all could assist me. I have a bunch of friends that take their cars out to Portland Internationl Raceway occasionally for track days with the Alfa Club, BMW Club, Porsche Club, etc... and I wanna prep this Camaro to keep up with em. It's a 1976 Type LT. Has a factory 130mph speedo and 7kRPM tach. It appears to have the original 305 V8 and TH350 trans. I installed an Edelbrock electric choke 600cfm 4barrel and Torker2 intake that I bought used from some dude for $150. It seems to run really well, pulls up to 5krpm alright and idles totally silent at 600rpm. doesn't seem to burn any oil. It has enough power for me at the moment but the handling leaves much to be desired. Does anyone on this board use their camaros for track day fun? what combos are you guys running? what "faster" cars have you pissed off? Thanks for your time! I'm just trying to get out there and show people what these old beasts are capable of!

I know this may seem blasphemous to some...but at the moment I'm into the car for ~$250..... that right. two hundred fifty dollars.... I'd like to get this thing track-able for under $1000 if possible so I wanna spend my meager funds where they will do the most. If you guys can assist me in mixing/matching stock/junkyard parts to good effect I would greatly appreciate it! :-)

[This message has been edited by rcr_x (edited March 26, 2004).]

[67lemanster]

Rcr welcome to the group. i have a feeling you have opened up a can of worms that wont go away about handling.

from what i have read here, and the info is very informative you have a couple of choices as far as suspension set ups. global west is one and hotchkis.

i have hotchkis. lowered springs in front and rear. a bigger 1 1/4" front sway bar and a 7/8" rear bar. front bar off a old trans am and the rear i think i got at summit. both are adequate for my needs. my shocks leave a little to be desired i have the kybs. and while they are ok there are better for what i want, koni, qa 1 make a coil over, bilstien, and edlebrocks. i have the eddies on another car and i should have go that route, but funds where tight. all of this stuff is bolt on stuff. however care should be taken when messing with front springs.

you might also look into new front control arm bushings. i run the poly graphite as opposed to rubber, like the stock setup. they are a harder rubber and there is less deflection in the suspension.

you might also want to look into a quicker ratio steering box. go from say 4.5 turns lock to lock to 3 turns lock to lock.

the aftermarket world is flooded with cool parts for your second gen camaro. brake upgrades would probably help your cause too.

you can go to my pic post and see what my car looks like lowered with the hotchkis. i think 1.5" in front and 2" in rear. car handles great even with the 30 year old technology tires i run. i will fix that soon as well as updating the rear brakes to disk. good luck and enjoy. tommy

sorry did not read last paragraph. budget. look for trans am ws 6 suspension parts on like ebay and such. i know they have many sway bars for cheap. i got my front there and it cost more to ship than what i paid. i also got my front hotchkis spring there. 70 bucks new plus shipping(right place right time) just gotta look. this is a great site to ask questions. the biggest part of my suspenion expense was 375.00 for rear springs and hardware. everything else was used or bought off ebay on the cheap. good luck tommy

[This message has been edited by 67lemanster (edited March 26, 2004).]

[coreynm]

Hey, another Portlander! I was at PIR last sunday auto-x with SCCA. (Running my '01, not the '71)
I'm afraid I won't be much help with the budget side of things. I'm ~$5000 into my '71 and only $2300 of that was car, the rest is front suspension!
The 12" brake conversion mentioned numerous times before (search) should be fairly cheap if you can find the parts used. I didn't have much luck with the local scrap yards.

Drop me a line if you need help wrenching.
Corey

[BluEyes]

You can find the spindles on more than just the B-body cars. I got mine off a late model Astro van. Looks and measures the exact same as my camaro spindles except the caliper mount is further out. Then I got the 1LE rotors for $115 at NAPA (ask for rotors for an '89 Camaro 305, w/ Performance package). Should only run me about $150 for the entire swap, and dang those are huge rotors!

Anyways, the best improvement you can make to handling along with bigger swaybars and better shocks is TIRES. I've got 15x7 rims with 235/60-15 tires and it grips really well. When I wear these out I'm going to go to 50-profile rubber and at least a 245 width, possibly more if I can clear it.
IMO, I'd do the shocks, swaybars, and tires before springs. For one they don't require any major work, and they'll give you the best bang for the buck. Of course, right after those three items, go for a front end rebuild and new springs
you probably won't be able to get all these items for under $1000, but you may be close if you are careful. Scour junkyards for swaybars before dropping $150 on the aftermarket ones. Measure how far apart the mounting points on the a-arms are, and how far foward the frame mounts are so you can see if bars from other cars will swap as well.

[dave@ronsraceshop]

rcr_x,

Well I have a pretty inexpensive suspension inmy 71 and I can tell youtheir are few vipers in Califonia that hate me.

But all that aside I use the global west front springs and rear leafs. I also have the 1 1/4" front sway bar and the stock T/A sway bar in the rear. I also use the poly busings in all suspension locations that I can put poly busings...

Now wheel and tires are the other 50% of how your suspension works and the response of your car. Wheels and tires will help your suspension give you feedback when in the coners.

I use 18x8 front 18x10 rear w/Toyo proxes T1s tires.

I have about $1,000 to $1500.00 in the suspension and $2300.00 in wheels and tires.
and this car goes around corners and the car is very predictable.If you need more info on this car you can call me at our shop I would be happy to talk 480-664-8908

Dave@RonsRaceShop


------------------
1971 RS Camaro
SBC 396cid w/32valve heads 555hp "Comming Soon"
TH-400 manual valve body 3200 stall converter
5-Speed Tremic "comming soon "
10 bolt Rear 3.73:1
3.08:1 "comming Soon"
18"x8" f / 18"x10" r Car lowered 2.5" from stock
Rons Race Shop Test Car

[Lowend]

As much as I hate to say it, road racing costs money and there is no way you will get into this safely for $500.

The real key to open tracking a Camaro is the brakes.
At the very least you need to buy a set of good pads (I like Hawk) and replace all the brake fluid with either Wilwood EXP 600 or Motul. This may prove to be insufficent, but is a good low $$ start.
You will find that the factory oil system is not up to the task of sustained G's. I would suggest a Canton Roadrace oil pan, this will run you around $400, but is well worth the $$.
Even with a dry sump I have seen cars go to 0 oilpressure in the carosel @ Sears Point. A stock oil pan doesn't stand a chance.

The suspension setup is going to be very important. The priorities

• Replace the subframe bushings with a set of Global West Aluminum units. All the trick suspension stuff on earth is worthless of the frame is tweaking under load.
• Replace all the Balljoints and tie-rods. If these let go on the track you can count on hitting a wall.
• Replace the a-arm bushings, I suggest Del-a-Lum, but if you are on a super budget you can use Poly.
• Springs and shocks are critical. I suggest a 650-750lbs front spring with a set of Bilstien shocks. The rear spring should be 160-200lbs with Bilstien shocks.

As you can see we have already racked up a couple of thousand dollars just to make the car safe.




------------------
1971 Camaro
383 stroker ~500HP
M21 4spd
12" brakes
16x10" Wheels
Autocross competitive
'95 Firebird Formula
Sales / Tech - The Speed Merchant, San Jose, CA
1-800-994-0930
http://www.speedmerchant.com/

[This message has been edited by Lowend (edited March 26, 2004).]

[67lemanster]

here is another post from another thread in the section. this seems an econmical way to start less wheels and tires. however todd does have either vette or camaro take off wheels and tires. his parts list is not that extensive probably the most expense will be300-400 for shocks. you might want to jump on that thread to read. tommy

Todds Quote - Here's my recipe-

-Moog 5610s up front- 420# rate, about 13.75" spindle center-lip.
-Vette Brakes fiberglass rear leafs- 184# rate, about 14.1" center-lip.
-Stock 1980 bars- 1.125" front, 5/8" rear
-Bilsteins all around.
-275/40/17s on 17x9s at all four corners.
-Rubber bushings, except for poly in the fiberglass leafs (no alternative).
- 1/32" toe in, if that, about -1/4* camber, and all the caster I could dial in (3*~ish)

It feels pretty neutral at the limit. I can't say that I've driven it that hard, long enough to really get a good feel. It's a fairly comfortable ride for the street, but also does well at ludicrous speeds. I'm satisfied. I ran with the front at a slight toe out for a little bit, and this gave some serious bite in the corner, to the point of feeling like oversteer, but felt a little sloppy going straight down the road.

As far as cornering, it's got to be in the .9g range. I tried checking this with one of those simple G-techs, but couldn't get consistent numbers. If someone wants to loan me the G-tech Comp, I'll verify I can say that it feels almost identical to my '92 Vette I had.

the thread is here-http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/005694.html

[RacerRick]

Here is my super cheap setup - I don't know if it will work yet since I have not had the car running at this point!


Front suspension and brakes:

Moog Springs 650 in/lb. #CS5662 IIRC
Summit Adjustable Circle Track Shocks
Stock 80 Z28 sway bar with poly bushings

Comp Engineering Solid Subframe bushings
2"x2" box tubing subframe connectors -welded through the floor

Energy Suspension Urethane pushings for the entire front end - don't use these. They suck. I am going to change them with AFCO solids with grease fittings.

Stock Z28 steering box. All new linkage and balljoints.

Fully welded Subframe with tabs welded to the body from the subframe. Its in there solid. Braced upper A-arm mounts.

12" 1LE disk brakes with Williams Performance Friction CrossDrilled Rotors and racing pads.

Russel Braided stainless brake flex lines.

Stock manual disk brake master from a 81' TA WS6.

Wilwood Proportioning valve.

Rear Suspenion and brakes:

WS6 rear disks on stock 3.08 posi rear.
Stock leafs rebuild with another half leaf - ~150 inch/lbs

Summit Circle track adjustable shocks.

Stock 80 Z28 sway bar with poly bushings.

Hotckiss mod to front spring bracket


And for tires I am running 255's on all four corners on 16x8 IROC rims. They are Hoosier Road Race Radials....

I think I have about $600 into the suspension.

[rcr_x]

Thanks for all the excellent info! I just purchased some new shoes for tha beast!



16 by 8.5"(I think) off an 84 Vette with 255/50r16's for all 4 corners. The bolt pattern is correct but they don't quite fit down over the hub centers in front and the offset is such that they hit the springs in back. I picked up a set of longer wheels studs/new lug nuts, and wheel spacers for all 4 corners to try and make em fit but I haven't had time to tackle that yet. Any suggestions before I tear things apart?