(Did I mispell the title? Oh well.)

Well, in case any of you were following my post regarding problems with my engine, here is the story of it's death.

Engine 355
Trick Flow 195CC heads
Duration 280/285
@.050 230/235
Lift: .490/.481
Edelbrock Performer RPM qjet
Qjet carb
KB Hyper Pistons
10.02:1 compression
MSD 6A ignition
Fluidamper Streetdamper


Well, fired the motor up after installing the new crank and bearings from the last cam failure. Engine fired right up, 2000 RPM, 1 minute later, "pop", and then I shut it down. It froze up.

I pulled the motor apart, and evidentally had a piston to valve clearance issue. Every intake valve smacked the piston. #4 intake valve dropped, blew a hole in the piston and cracked the block in 4 places. over a gallon of antifreeze came out of the oil pan. The #4 chamber is scratched up. Blew crap back into the intake manifold. So, boom, it blew up.

Now I'm looking for ideas as to where I should go now. $5000 later, I have no motor. Looking for the cheapest way to run mid 11's.


[This message has been edited by marsfrogie (edited December 12, 2004).]

I know it's not cheap, but you may want to look at a crate engine. I know there are a few out there that make great power, have warranties, and will cost less than getting the parts and building it yourself.

That suck's!
Any idea why the intakes were hitting? Just by going off your lift & duration #'s, it should have been OK in my opinion.
Timing chain failure or missaligned?

Crate motors are out of the question. I won't settle for less than 400HP, and anything over 400HP seems to be extremely pricey. I've actually been considering going the 454 or 496 route. I've been told a 454 will bolt right up to a TH350.

Um, I honestly couldn't tell you about the timing deal. I THINK I did it right. It was a multi-keyway sprocket and I installed it at 0. I've had several people tell me that there is no way in hell that it would have made contact if it was timed right. Of course, I was running a rather tight quench of 44 thousandths. Of course, if the machine shop didn't tell me something right, that might not be true.

[This message has been edited by marsfrogie (edited December 11, 2004).]

.044 quench doesn't make it THAT much closer. I've seen guys run 2.05 valves and .580 lift with a stock flat top piston 350.

Damn.I hope I never run into something like that.4 places cracked you say?Wow.

If someone will host pics, I can go out and take pictures of the carnage. Words don't do it justice. http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by marsfrogie (edited December 11, 2004).]

Mail them to me, I have ton's of server space

that's not alot of valve lift or duration heck the .230 /.235 @ .050 is nothing major at all.are you sure your pistons were facing the right direction in the bore "arrows" ???.my honest opinion that cam is way to small for valve/piston interference

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1972 chevy camaro ss 350 sbc 425 hp/356 @ the wheels,350 trans,373 gears,daily driver with restification in progress for that old school day 2 look ------- future plans- turning it into a baldwin motion Z30 clone
"IF IT'S TO LOUD YOUR TO OLD"
-------------------------

I agree , something else was wrong considering that low lift and duration.

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1978 Z-28 purchased new by me -$6750
Click here (http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/someonehasthisid/detail?.dir=/d752&.dnm=aefd.jpg) to view present state photo
Look above for glory days.
1994 Formula
1982 350 S-10

Yes, pistons were correctly installed. The only thing I can think of is the installation of the timing set. I don't know how I could have messed it up really. I installed it on the keyway that said "0" and then positioned the other "0" with the dot on the big gear. Dot to dot, should have been fine. It started very quickly too, so I don't think it was off a tooth or anything. What I honestly don't get is I had GOBS of clearance with a very similar cam.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by marsfrogie:
Yes, pistons were correctly installed. The only thing I can think of is the installation of the timing set. I don't know how I could have messed it up really. I installed it on the keyway that said "0" and then positioned the other "0" with the dot on the big gear. Dot to dot, should have been fine. It started very quickly too, so I don't think it was off a tooth or anything. What I honestly don't get is I had GOBS of clearance with a very similar cam.</font>

dot to dot is TDC #6 compression stroke
both dots pointed "UP" is TDC #1 compression stroke
(i think its compression stoke?)

if that makes sence... atleast thats what its been on the last 3 SBCs i've put a cam in

i made it easy on myself by setting it up on TOC #6 compression stroke(i think it is C/S?) pointed dot to dot and it's set up right when its TDC #1 compression stroke so then both dots are pointed straight up


i hope i didnt confuise anyone... its kinda hard to explain... i did it on my last 2 and they started right up without any problems... and i have 1 more i gotta find heads for so i can run it...

Which TFS heads are you running and where did the valves contact the pistons? I have heard of similar carnage with the old 'twisted wedge' design. You DEFINATELY need to clay the piston to check for radial clearance in the valve pocket.

The beauty is aluminum heads can be repaired. You need a block, some head repair, valves, one piston (and FOR SURE have that rod checked), and have the pistons cut for valve clearance. Yeah it's a delay and a little bit of cash, but I don't see it as the total demise of the motor if you had no other rotating assembly / cam and valve train carnage.

That is bizarre... Piston to valve issues with less than .500 lift. I have run over 570 lift on flattop piston motors without clearance problems.
Trick Flow strikes again...

------------------
1971 Camaro
383 stroker ~500HP
M21 4spd
12" brakes
16x10" Wheels
Autocross competitive
Sales / Tech - The Speed Merchant, San Jose, CA
1-800-994-0930
mailto:BrettK@speedmerchant.comBrettK@speedmerchant.com</A>
http://www.speedmerchant.com/

Sorry to hear that bud. Please keep us updated on the cause though. That sounds very strange.

I always run thigher quench and higher lifts than you and never had any
V-P clearance probs

Right now i'm at .040" quench with .484"/.512" lift

damn, that really sucks man. I guess we can all learn a lesson and remember to check clearance even if we think it will clear...

I'm getting worried about my combo having clearance problems if yours did--- zero deck 406 with dish -15cc, AFR heads milled to 64cc, .539/.588 lift cam with 1.6 rockers (which means like .596 on exhaust).
Uh oh...

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by 1981coupe400ci:
dot to dot is TDC #6 compression stroke
both dots pointed "UP" is TDC #1 compression stroke
(i think its compression stoke?)

if that makes sence... atleast thats what its been on the last 3 SBCs i've put a cam in

i made it easy on myself by setting it up on TOC #6 compression stroke(i think it is C/S?) pointed dot to dot and it's set up right when its TDC #1 compression stroke so then both dots are pointed straight up


i hope i didnt confuise anyone... its kinda hard to explain... i did it on my last 2 and they started right up without any problems... and i have 1 more i gotta find heads for so i can run it...</font>

Eh?
Now you REALLY have me worried!
I installed mine dot to dot, with #1 at TDC. I guess that I can't be certain now as to whether it was the comp stroke or not.

Ah man, now you really have me going insane.
HELP, HELP!

The heads are the Kenny Dutweiler 23degree street heads for SBC. 64CC chambers. They don't appear to have the offset valve pattern. They look to be straight. The valves contacted the pistons in a half circle pattern. It was an even contact. The rod on #4 looks like it might be twisted.

I'm seriously considering having the heads repaired and selling them or something. Or maybe just putting them on the shelf. I'm starting to get worried that I simply won't be pleased with the power a 350 produces. The motor was running before, but the cam was damaged, so I really don't know. When the cam was damaged the car was unimpressive. What would it take to run low-mid 11's street/strip all day long in a 3500lb. (with me) car? What kind of prices am I looking at on repair work? Should I go ahead and can the SB and get a BB?

[This message has been edited by marsfrogie (edited December 12, 2004).]

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Eliminator SS:
Eh?
Now you REALLY have me worried!
I installed mine dot to dot, with #1 at TDC. I guess that I can't be certain now as to whether it was the comp stroke or not.

Ah man, now you really have me going insane.
HELP, HELP!</font>


The crank and cam are keyed. There is only one way to make the dots line up (with a normal timing set). If you had both dots as close together as possible (dot to dot), you are fine.

What's a muncie M20 setup worth? I see a guy is trying to sell one in the swapmeet. What kind of power can they handle? What's the gearing? Worth a set of trick flow heads that need slight (hell, it can't be THAT bad) chamber work and possibly some new intake valves?

[This message has been edited by marsfrogie (edited December 12, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by marsfrogie (edited December 12, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by marsfrogie (edited December 12, 2004).]

"needs slight chamber work"? http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/redface.gif http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/redface.gif

http://www.casemp.com/gregh/car/fubar1.JPG
http://www.casemp.com/gregh/car/fubar2.JPG
http://www.casemp.com/gregh/car/fubar3.JPG
http://www.casemp.com/gregh/car/fubar4.JPG
http://www.casemp.com/gregh/car/fubar5.JPG

I had a guy tell me all they'll do is punch out the metal insert in the valve seat, put a new one in and take a die grinder to the rest.

How did the motor sound while running?

Pretty snappy?

Start easy, or require cranking?

At a glance,
I would say you had the cam advanced too much. Intake valve was opening too soon at the end of the exhaust stroke.

Either that or the timing chain broke.

Or the heads have been MILLED ALOT which doesn't appear to be the case since the plug has plenty of space between the deck.

Also of note,
even if the timgin chain marks APPEAR to be line up it doesn't gaurantee correct cam timing.

I've assembled motors using the 3 way timing sets, and line up the marks...
And it be off one cam tooth. 12.5 degrees of cam timing.

That is why they get degreed when I do them. I'm not worried about the 1-2 degrees of variation, I'm worried about the damn marks being wrong.

It fired right up, minimal cranking. It was very snappy, sounded angry too.

If your valves were smacking your pistons, you'd be pretty angry too!
Take a really good look at the timing chain & gears, I'll guess that one/some of them are screwed up.

Last month you posted a problem with the # 4 intake lobe wiping out, this problem seemed to start at #4 again, or at least done the most damage. I am wondering if you got a valve guide clearence issue that started all this carnage. Usually it would bend the pushrods, but you never know. It would be interesting to see a shot of the front gears and chain. Mark

I'll snap a picture of the timing set later. I'll point out what keyway and dots I used.

In spite of recent events, I have decided I just wasn't meant to go fast with this motor. So. I've got a buddy helping me find parts for phase 3. Sigh... The dark side is definately calling. Everything else is for sale http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by marsfrogie:
In spite of recent events, I have decided I just wasn't meant to go fast with this motor. So. I've got a buddy helping me find parts for phase 3. Sigh... The dark side is definately calling. Everything else is for sale http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif</font>

Might as well... http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif A mild 496 stroker with worked stock heads would be a rocket!

http://www.casemp.com/gregh/car/fubar1.JPG

Looks like #1 hole in my 454, note the long linear crack(s). Ughh, I feel for ya. My cracks were from trying to compress liquid. Guys,Is sleeving an option to save the block?

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John Wright

John, sleeving that cylinder will correct your coolant compression problem and bring the block back into service. Note that excessive interference fit on the sleeve will distort the bores on either side of it and possibly require overboring to the next oversize.

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Custom Auto, your source for quality machine work, cores and new parts at competetive pricing right here in British Columbia 1-888-563-4050
A Canadian, EH? (with a 10 second street car)

The biggest offender of pistons being hit by the intake valve when using a mild camshaft is incorrect crankshaft to camshaft phasing.
When the #1 piston is at TDC the crankshaft woodruff key will be at or about the 2:00 position.
What can cause this type of condition? Well, As already mentioned, There are timing chain gearsets that are either not stamped correctly or have the advance/retard slots machined incorrectly (Or, worst case scenario, both...).

Thanks for the reply Rust,
I didn't mean to hijack the thread, just saw a similar situation to my own.

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John Wright

I would never sleeve a cracked block unless it was an antique.After it's cracked there is no support for the sleeve.Might,might not leak or shake.

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1978 Z-28 purchased new by me -$6750
Click here (http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/someonehasthisid/detail?.dir=/d752&.dnm=aefd.jpg) to view present state photo
Look above for glory days.
1994 Formula
1982 350 S-10

The cam died here and I'm wondering if that wasn't what originally caused the whole mess -- one of them pics showed a toasted lifter and a round lobe.

If the cam died during breakin it is possible that the engine dropped a valve because when the lobe went flat the extra lash beat the lock right out of the retainer. Once a valve drops, the piston gets nailed and knocked out of round cracking the block. Only takes a few seconds to happen . . .

I think the heads are VERY repairable. Not really that bad at all from what I see in the pics. I'd dump the block, but the crank and at least 7 rods are probably fine. Not a total loss . . .

Best of luck and hang in there

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Eric68:
The cam died here and I'm wondering if that wasn't what originally caused the whole mess -- one of them pics showed a toasted lifter and a round lobe.

</font>

The camshaft and lifter was from the previous break in disaster.

This cam didn't have time to fail http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

I'm definately set on a big block though. Everything is for sale.