Can somebody tell me the differences between the different ford motors? I've been trying to make sense of the whole lineage of ford motors. Which ones are descendents or predecessors and any revisions made between the generations.

It seems ferds are a little bit hokey compared to chevys. Maybe it just seems that way because people call the same thing by different names.

i'll try,, from say the mid 1960's and up off the top of my head here,,,,

the 255,260,289,302,351W are of the same family of the "small block" era.
the 351C,351M,400 are of the same family.
the 352,360,361,390,391,427,428 are of the F.E. or ford edsel era.
the 370,429,460 are of the big block era.
i imagine there were more in each catagory,, but that's for starters.
i can dig up an old bearing book and find all of them in each catagory if needed. hope it helps.

the modular design setup's were designed to be able to use alot of the same parts within their group. like rods,pistons,timing sets,timing covers,etc.....

some parts differed though,, like oil pans,blocks"cylinders", heads"#of valves per head per cylinder and # of cylinders to match the blocks", intake manifolds, etc....
the lengths or added cylinders/intake and exaust runners were lengthened from use with a v-6 through the v-10,, but share alot of the same internals.

maybe that helps some.

74 RAT,

You nailed it!

Having worked in a a Ford Mustang / Shelby / Cobra Replica shop, I had to learn the differences and you grouped them together as accurately as I would have.

79 rallysport, are you working on a Ford project? Or, are you just trying to get a clearer understanding of the competition?

Forgot the little-bitty 221 Windsor and the 332 FE.

And Ford made the MEL line that consisted of the 383/410/430/462 engines that had flat chambered heads like our old 348/409/427 "W" engines..

The chambers are actually in the block b/c the decks are cut at 10 degrees for the MEL's and 16 degrees for our old "W" engines if not mistaken..

Onna the biggest problems w/ Ford engines is that you just can't just mix and match them like we can our SB's and BB's b/c they just kept tweeking them all the time..

Early and late bellhousing bolt patterns, motor mount locations, heads, rod lengths, pistons, balancers and flex plate/flywheels and such crap like that...........

I figure that a guy really need's to know what he's doing to play w/ them if he try's to mix and match, imho...

pdq67

Rat's got it almost right.
The 351W & 351C shouldn't be grouped in with any other engines. The 351W does share a head design & a lot of block similarities with the rest of the small block family but it has a 1/2" more stroke due to a taller deck height. The crank journals are larger & the firing order is different too.

The 351C shares the head design with the 351M & 400M but the blocks are way different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_335_engine

Wikipedia has a wealth of info on all of the different motors for all the major manufacturers.The link above deals with the 351.302 & 400 series.

It's one of my peeve's about Ford... even within engine family's there are variations depending on what factory things got built at.

Here is how I would generalize
255,260,289,302,351W - The Windsor family
good design for a small lightweight engine; crappy bottom ends due to their cast connecting rods. Built right they have a ton of potential; espically the 351W (which can be stroked to 408 without much pain)

351C,351M,400 - The Cleveland Family
Big and heavy, more akin to a big block than a small block. I personally don't much care for them due to the weight. 351C's with factory 4BBls are rare but have MASSIVE intake ports and were used a race motors for awhile as a result. The mains are smaller diameter than the Windsor family (I think - its been awhile), so they are a little more apt to hi-rpm's.

352,360,361,390,391,410 merc, 427,428 - The FE family
This is an ancient design, really more setup for trucks and tractors than cars. Its big, its heavy, and I like it. The crank is recessed into the block so it would take an act of god to damage a main cap.
The 427/390's did make appearances in the Mustangs and Cobras of their era,and although heavily hyped were not widely used for roadracing (read the fine print most of the Trans-Am cars ran 302's or 260 Windsors)
Big heavy indestructable torque monsters - use this motor to tow your racecar to the truck for the next 30 years

There you go forgetting about the little-bitty, 221 motor! I had one at one time..

One thing to think about is that even tho it is a big Mutha, the 460 has a 4.9" bore spacing so can be made VERY BIG w/o all that much hassle, kinda like a big 500 Cad. w/ a 5.0" bore spacing.

I think Cads, Packards and I bet Studes have a 5.0" bore spacing, but I may be off on the Studes??

pdq67

right pdq and gregh!! also,, with the boss 302,, it's a rare one in itself. a small block family engine block that had 4 bolt mains with big screw in pipe thread freeze/core plugs. that block was used from the factory with the 4bbl cleveland heads and a ford intake manifold specific for the purpose. also was a different crank and the cleveland rods,, maybe a short stroke version of the cleveland crank,, as far as rod journal sizes and main journal sizes. don't remember off the top of my head,, but not a normal small block family crank. it's been about 8-10 years since i've seen one of those blocks. but a different breed in itself. a factory one off thing.

also,, the regular 351cleveland used a different (read short deck height) block and a shorter rod design than all the other in the 351C/351M/400 head design family to deal with the shorter deck height. the 351M and 400 can share the same block with either innards.

not to mention the 2Y and 3Y crank blocks with the 460 engines. the "early" and "later" styles of blocks. you couldn't use the older cranks in the newer blocks. won't fit. counterweights different. other way arround is fine though.

although the 289/302 can be changed out with each other. also,, the rear seal oil slinger flanges on the older 2 piece 302's and 289's and earlier can be cut off in the lathe and used in the one piece blocks.

bell housings are a definate nightmare as mentioned.

also,, a tidbit that i heard,,,,,,,,, the 351C was called the "Cleveland" because of the "C",,,, and some have called the 351M a "Modified",, but i heard it was actually a "M" to stand for "Midland" because of the location of production. although i always heard it called a 351 modified by most.

ok,, i was trying to keep it short eariler!! he he!! never mind.

lowend,, my shop owner buddy here still has a pair or 2 of those 4bbl cleveland heads. bare castings. they are HUGE on the intake runners. he sold the last boss 302 block i've ever seen as mentioned above. not much out here left ford core wise. he got 700$ for that bare block cleaned and magged. was std bore.

260 , 289 and 302 are ford small blocks

351W - a ford small block that is a taller deck and different firing order than the other small blocks .only thing that interchanges is the cylinder heads with other sb fords

351C - a ford small block that has the same cubic inch displacement as the 351W only item that interchanges is the cylinder heads that can be swapped onto a 302 ford sb . all other parts on a cleavland will not interchange with a 351W or other sb ford .to distinguish a ford 351C from a 351W is very easy the valve covers are a different design with more bolts to secure it and that's the easiest feature to tell them apart .also the front timing chain cover is fatter and more visible than the 351W .also the cylinder heads on these clevlands especially the 4bbl have massive intake ports to flow alot of cfm thru them , these heads were used on 1969 ford boss 302's

351M - is a modular design sb ford that shares the same features as a clevland but very low compression ,poor flowing cyl heads

400 - same design as the 351C and 351M but very low compression , again a smog motor with very low performance capabilities


352 ,406 ,390,427 ,428 - are FE motors and are designed from the old Y blocks of the early 60's and have a very unique design with a noticeable Y shaped block and cylinder heads that are part of the intake manifold .the intake manifold has holes drilled in them for push rod access and run a rail style rocker arm assy . some of the famous engines in this class was the 406 ford police interceptor package that ran a 3x2 bbl intake manifold and high compression

other famous engines were the ford 427 side oilers that were designed for nascar and NHRA drag racing and there was many different versions of this motor .the name side oiler came from a main oil passage design that was on the left side of the block near the pan rail ,also it had a cross bolted main cap design

here is some 427 ford engines :

427 low riser

427 medium riser

427 high riser

427 tunnel port

427 SOHC

427 SOHC hemi

the low,medium and high riser 427's were used in a variety of ford cars and the low riser had a single 4bbl and the medium and high riser had dual 4bbl intakes .some single 4bbl intakes especially the ford sidewinder intake was used on the medium and high riser equipped motors .also the medium and high riser motors were only used in cars that could fit the taller intakes in them without hood mods like a tear drop hood

the 427 tunnel port was a beast of a motor that was designed for nascar and had intake ports as big as pepsi cans .they had to design a push rod tube that went into the center of the intake port so the pushrod could be sealed up . the intake manifolds were a special designed 2x4 intake with a air gap design and a special tube that fed vacum between the two carb pads . these motors didn't really make power until 5000 rpm and pulled very hard up past 7000 rpm easily

427 SOHC - basically a 427 side oiler with a camshaft in ea cylinder head and a special 8' long factory double roller timing chain that connected both camshafts together that ran from the crankshaft

427 SOHC /hemi - this was a redesigned version of the 427 SOHC motor but with a hemispherical combustion chambers



429 and 460 BB fords - these are called the LIMA version and pretty much are a copy of chevy's big blocks except for the front mounted distributor . they use a valve train design almost similiar to a BBC and a BBC valve cover will bolt up to these motors


you ask why i know so much about fords ,i used to own alot of fords especially the 427 ford tunnel port powered 66 ford fairlane "R" code ....... i wish i never sold that car !!!!!!!!!:whine: :whine: :whine:

255,260,289,302,351W - The Windsor family
good design for a small lightweight engine; crappy bottom ends due to their cast connecting rods. Built right they have a ton of potential; espically the 351W (which can be stroked to 408 without much pain)



W motors don't have cast rods. There would be alot more scattered SBF's if they did, even with the tiny 5/16 rod bolts of the early motors they would run 7K+ rpm all day.

The 393 stroker I did a couple of years ago sees 6500 rpm in all 4 gears often enough with the stock 351W rods...

back in the late seventies we would find 289 hipo or 289 "K" code cylinder heads and put them on 351W ,this would increase compression and the hipo 289 heads made the engine really breathe

The 302/5.0 has cast rods... no?
I seem to recall several Pro charged 5.0 Mustangs with stock bottom ends that blew up on the dyno due to broken cast rods.

The 302/5.0 has cast rods... no?
I seem to recall several Pro charged 5.0 Mustangs with stock bottom ends that blew up on the dyno due to broken cast rods.


i think the only years that ford put forged parts in there 5.0 motors was from 1989 to 92

The 302/5.0 has cast rods... no?
I seem to recall several Pro charged 5.0 Mustangs with stock bottom ends that blew up on the dyno due to broken cast rods.

It wasn't cast rods. Cast crank yes, rods no.

The only fairly modern American V8s that used cast rods that I know of are the Pontiacs and Cadillacs.
There may be others but the Ford Windsor family is not it. Carrol Shelby specifically used the 289 engine in his Cobras and Shelby Mustangs because it could run 7K+ unbalanced without hurting it. (2 7/8" stroke...)
Those engines had teeny 5/16 rod bolts that torque to like 22 lb/ft IIRC.

The 302 went to larger rod bolts sometime in the 70's and those are a MUCH better choice but either way they were forged.

I have a 1969 351W apart in the shop right now.

i think the only years that ford put forged parts in there 5.0 motors was from 1989 to 92

They used forged pistons from 1987-91 or 92 IIRC. The rods have always been forged, at least since the 289. I'm not a Ford guy but I've rebuilt enough 289, 302, 351Ws and a few Ford BB's to know they had forged rods.

I stand corrected.

Still forgetting the little-bitty 221" engine that started it all!

Ford designed their engines several ways if you want to look at them as such..

Skirted "Y" block type and also non-skirted like our Chevys..

Timing covered like our type vs timing plated type that have the chain and sprockets inside cast-iron and then covered w/ a plate. We don't have anything like that!!

The Boss 302's rod is either longer or shorter by a "C"-hair for no apparent reason too!! Therefore the piston compression height is different too, plus their pistons dome fit the Chevy BB style Cleveland engine chamber so won't work w/ the 221 to 351 wedge heads.

Ford never did make a strong running street engine head that I know of unless you count some of the Aussie stuff...

They are either grocery-getter jobbers or all-out race heads!! NOTHING even close to our old double-hump heads back then!!!!!

AND the reason why some of Ford's engines have BB style heads is b/c I want to say that somebody like MAYBE NASCAR told Chevy that they had to share the design w/ Ford so Ford basically got free engineering!!!

BUT BUT I may be off here, it mighta been the smog police, I forget!!

I figure somebody will know if this story is right or not and will step up and tell it like it was..

pdq67

PDQ,
The 1969 and 1970 351W motors also had a different deck height than later 351W. Rod length was the same I believe but the deck height and pistons were different.

I meant this Jake.

5.090" is the stock 302 Ford rod length and 5.155" is the stock 289 and Boss 302 Ford rod lengths!

I donno why they did this??

pdq67

Ford never did make a strong running street engine head that I know of unless you count some of the Aussie stuff...

pdq67


ford did make some very good flowing heads for the windsor family and that was the 271hp 289 "K" code version . the other heads that flowed very well and i ran them were the 427 hi-riser heads and the 427 tunnel port cyl heads . on my 66 ford fairlane "R" code i had a built 427 ford side oiler with a 428 SCJ crank that was 454 cubic inch displacement . with the hi-riser cylinder heads ,lemans mech solid flat tappet cam ,and factory 2x4 intake with dual 600cfm holley's the fairlane ran 12.20 ET's . when i switched over to the 427 tunnel port cyl heads and tunnel port 2x4 with the same holley's i lowered my ET to 11.70's .remind you this was back in 1982 but it was a street car that was alot of fun to drive and race @ OCIR in socal

ford did make some very good flowing heads for the windsor family and that was the 271hp 289 "K" code version .


The Windsor heads are very well known for their WEAK exhaust port flow and not all that spectacular intake flow. The most desirable factory heads back in the day were the 351W heads off a 1969 or 1970 model.
They had larger chambers but a MUCH better intake and exhaust flow than any other Windsor head. IIRC any of the mid 70s 351 heads had the better ports but the '69 and 70 models had larger valves.

Look at the size of the exhaust ports on a K code 289 head, itty bitty.

The Windsor heads are very well known for their WEAK exhaust port flow and not all that spectacular intake flow. The most desirable factory heads back in the day were the 351W heads off a 1969 or 1970 model.
They had larger chambers but a MUCH better intake and exhaust flow than any other Windsor head. IIRC any of the mid 70s 351 heads had the better ports but the '69 and 70 models had larger valves.

Look at the size of the exhaust ports on a K code 289 head, itty bitty.

hey jakeshoe if you want to see some massive intake ports on a FE motor check out the 427 tunnel port !!:eek: :eek: . the intake port is the same size as a coke can ,it's very close to 2-3/4 inch dia . the port is so big the push rod is in a tube that goes right thru the center of that port


http://i2.ebayimg.com/04/i/000/9e/4f/388e_12.JPG (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150121455115&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting)



http://i12.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/9e/4f/4c53_3.JPG


here's the tunnel port intake notice the push rod tubes in the intake ports
http://i16.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/9d/b4/4dcd_1.JPG





i totally forgot about the 69 351W cylinder heads .. DUH !! , i had a 67 mustang with that engine but i was running a 289-302 ford camshaft in it with a 289-302 firing order . that motor would scream and pull really hard and i was running a 580 lift mechanical flat tappet cam

Yah,
The Boss 302 heads were also large by huge and caused the engine to suck, way too much head for the cubes.

on my 66 ford fairlane "R" code i had a built 427 ford side oiler with a 428 SCJ crank that was 454 cubic inch displacement . with the hi-riser cylinder heads ,lemans mech solid flat tappet cam ,and factory 2x4 intake with dual 600cfm holley's the fairlane ran 12.20 ET's . when i switched over to the 427 tunnel port cyl heads and tunnel port 2x4 with the same holley's i lowered my ET to 11.70's .remind you this was back in 1982 but it was a street car that was alot of fun to drive and race @ OCIR in socal
Never should have sold that one.

Never should have sold that one.


yep i know i screwed up when i sold it ,but i still have pics of it i took with a 35 mm camera back in 1981 .what's sucks is i sold it for $4500 back then and do you know how much one of these fairlanes go for now !!!:whine: :whine: :whine: :whine:

I know a guy whose wife got sick and had to sell his '64 fairlane T-Bolt for not all that much money!!

He's from Birmingham, AL and worked refractories too.

pdq67

69-70 351-w Heads were among the best iron ford heads(C9 Heads) I have two sets I have a 351-W in a 23ft Mako Boat. Its a good engine I think these motors in 69 put out about 290HP with these heads. My motor is a shade over 300HP prob with a mild cam and intake. Has a real nice sound opened up in boat. I would rather have a SBC for the simplicity but its not worth changing all that crap. I will stick to my chevy in my Car's.

Had a ford 68 galaxy 500 once, only had the 302 but even then I tore up any 5.0 rustang I came across. Even the stick cars by time they wound out 2nd I came roaring by.

Traded it for a 72 Kaw 750 triple all done up for drag racing.
only had 20 over jugs, some jets n expansion pipes but it did an easy 9.5 with 200lb rider

Put a plate on it with my 500 kaw triple title n rode it on the street.

Had a set of 80 over jugs n pistons but never had the balls to install them.

After that bike I got into cruisers, done went faster then I ever wanna go in the open again.

A 9sec street car would be sweet though.

Wow, I haven't heard of 500 and 750 3-cyl. Kaws for years and years!!

Same way w/ an RD Yamaha..

pdq67

Pretty much all I rode in my youth.

Had a 250, 350, 500 a stock 750 n the drag 750.

They were so much fun during the crocth rocket craze.

Sure them rockets did 185MPH but no one could keep up with me block to block.

Only did like 140-150 top but you were there ASAP. Even the 500 made many cry foul but it was an all stocker $500 garage sale bike.

The drag one was scary fast, soon as ya got to top of 5th you were more then ready to let go of the gas. Was almost a releif that the thing was topped out.

Was kinda funny how it all happened.

But a pinto for $185 that leaked oil, drove it forever leaking [got jugs of used oil from behind auto store;)], sold it for $500 and got the Galaxy for $495 out the door [used car lot didn't realize ya need lead addtive so it don't smoke;)] then traded it for that Kaw

Kaw came with a few race seasons of extra parts. Only blew the middle cylinder once but had spare parts. Then sold the whole lot later on when I was out of the crazy for $900 to a guy who turned them into 7sec pro dragsters.