I finally blew my motor up. I actually drove this thing on the street for 3+ Years:

363 ci Stroked 350, .030 Bore, Edelbrock Performer Aluminum Intake, Holley Quick Fuel 4160 650CFM Carb, Custom Crank, Rods and Dome Pistons, 13.8:1 Compression, World Products Sportsman II Heads, Manley Guideplates, Double Springs, Solid Lifters, Flowtech 1 3/4" Longtube Headers, Flowtech Stainless Exhaust, 6PT Roll Cage, Mini Tub, TH-350 Turbo, 2800 Stall, B&M Ratchet Shifter, 10 Bolt rear, Spooled, Lunati Cam 288/298 Duration 543/561 Lift, M/T Aluminum Valve Covers, Full Framed, (Not Uni-body)

I need to put a new power plant into my beast. I want differnt, get up and go and durable. I can do most of the work myself. Any suggestions on differnet combos? Not afraid of entire drive train swap.

[This message has been edited by F28_Camaro (edited July 22, 2005).]

Can't beat a 454HO crate motor http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

If you want different try an LS1 / T56.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by MikeM79:
If you want different try an LS1 / T56.</font>

It doesn't get any better than this for performance/mileage http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

Yea, an LS1 might be cute, but nothing beats having a big block. I just love mine. My 81 came with a 350 stock, I went over to a 402 a couple years ago and have since upgraded to a 468. My recomendation? 454 in front of a decent 400 tranny. Just my $.02 cents worth.

Oh, and the 2nd gen Camaro has to be one of the easiest cars out there to go from a small block to a big block.

She's still a work in progres, but check her out:
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/2056000-2056999/2056394_1_full.jpg


[This message has been edited by 1981Z28_454 (edited July 22, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by 1981Z28_454 (edited July 22, 2005).]

426, be different http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

What I am about to say will probably upset a few people, but to those with an open mind - advise, suggestions and experience is welcomed.

I am thinking of using a Mustang 5.0L drivetrain, motor with aftermarket heads, cam, upper and lower intake, Fuelie.

It appears to me the Ford 302 has the same 4 inch bore as a chev 350, but a much shorter stroke (shorter stroke more durable), also the 302 is roller, (also more durable). Plus they are great motors to fog with a lil juice.

So how difficult would it be to make mounts for motor and tranny?

The 5.0 is a great engine in a 3000 lb. Mustang with a 5 speed, but stick it in a 3700 lb. Camaro and it won't run nowhere near as strong.

Now if you go with the 351W Lightning engine, that's a good deal. Still the same 4 inch bore, but a 3.5 inch stroke, and still a roller cammed, EFI engine that's just a tad wider than a 5.0.

The rolling chasis that is my camaro is no where near 3700 lbs. It weighs in at just a touch above 3200 lbs. It's been stripped to barebones.

The lightening 351 sounds like an excellent idea too, However it holds the same problem as a fresh chev 327 motor... Hard to find.

[This message has been edited by F28_Camaro (edited July 22, 2005).]

I'd pass on a 5.0L. I have one in my 99 Xploder....yes, its good, but its far from something I'd call 'peformance' in our cars, even lighter ones like yours. Sure you can build it right and juice the hell outta it, or stuff a huffer on it and stuff the PSI's in it too....but you really can beat normal cubic inches. If you WANT to go Ford....I'd go nothing less than a 351....Cleveland. M's are a waste of your time, and W's....well....everyone has one http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

I knew a guy that put a caddy motor in a Chevelle....took some time to do engine mounts and headers....and some other small problems....but he got it running....and that pig would smoke the tires almost 100 yards with NO brakes....

Yeah, we'd be a lil 'upset' you put a Ford motor in it...but its your car....I'm just here to help http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

There is an article is chevy High Performance in which they put a roller cam in a 327. With a few mods it pushed out just over 400 horse. Have you checked Ebay for engine blocks? Maybe you could fine one within traveling distance. IMO you won't be happy with downgrading to a ford motor. Ford parts cost alot more too, especially if you have to replace them all the time http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

rscamaro73: What kind of Caddy motor?

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by F28_Camaro:
rscamaro73: What kind of Caddy motor?</font>

Oh heck, I didn't even think of that one. That's definitely different, and fairly cheap. Even a stock 500 with just headers and an intake will make more torque than you can believe. If you're lucky enough to find a good 1970 model, they were around 550 lbs./ft. torque!

Yes, they had some decent net HP numbers, but they would also require lead subsitute or all new valve seals in order to run without leaded gas. It would also possibly need a top-end rebuild, being that old and if it was run when they stopped selling leaded.

The SAE numbers for 70 were 400/550, which well pre-dates the modern correction factor due to SAE revision, so those numbers cannot be viewed in the same light as SAE numbers from the last two decades and if corrected, would be much lower. With 10:1 compression and 500ci, it definitely had some power potential but almost no aftermarket following whatsoever, its not really the most viable choice when it comes to a power plant.

Not to play the devil's advocate, but Car Craft did a similar thing that you are talking about with the 327, but they did it with a stock roller 5.0L, stuck some AFR 165's on it, and with a Weiand D/P, it made over 400HP with the stock camshaft.

The thing I see as advantageous to using a Mustang motor is this: There is a massive aftermarket following for them, they will take Nitrous and boost no problem, they have a very well-engineered SEFI system and they seem to take abuse very well. Its not common to see a Mustang being sold with a rebuilt motor, but it IS common to see them being sold with massively high (and probably very hard) mileage on them and they still run like a top.

A 327 would be a great choice, but they are VERY hard to find for a reasonable price, and I'd love to do it with a 283 Crankshaft, (the infamous Chevy 302) but the innability to find parts is what really makes this option difficult.

I DO know a guy that put a 500 Cadillac motor in an 88 Monte Carlo to replace the aging 305 that was in there, he needed to make custom motor mounts, the engine didn't clear the hood, he needed a custom drive shaft and after it was all said and done, it didn't work any where near as well as he expected it to, he was a tad dissapointed.

I don't want that same experience with my Camaro, with the 363, it worked VERY well, I don't want to spend all this money on a huge motor that doesn't have any aftermarket parts and find that its performance is far under par compared to that of my 363.

Keep the suggestions coming, and rsCamaro_73, apparently (from what I've read, been doing some reading up on Mustang performance) you should put a stock 5.0L HO camshaft in your Explorer, it would be a completely different vehicle.

if you want power, want to build it yourself, and have the money and resources available, why not put a couple hairdryers on a small block chevy?
There's all kinds of tech articles out there, and several members on this message board that can steer you in the right direction.

Anything ford can boost, we can boost better. They have to buy head gaskets by the dozen!!

That's what went on my car...

The Head Gasket...

Filled the cylinders with coolant and took out my bearings.

Yeah Ford only has 10 head bolts, we have 17! http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/biggrin.gif The hair dryer idea is hard to beat, just an idea http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by F28_Camaro:
That's what went on my car...

The Head Gasket...

Filled the cylinders with coolant and took out my bearings.</font>

Go with Cometic gaskets this time.

2nd gens have all the nose area in front of the radiator, I would love to see someone put one of those single huge, mean and ugly turbos up front like the ford boys like to rely on. What about getting really ugly and boosting a big block?

I suggest against the Ford motors for one major reason: All small block fords come with CAST connecting rods from the factory. This means that anytime you start making big power numbers the rods WILL fail.
You could go though the bottom end of the motor, but if you are gonna do that you might as well build the Chevy.

I should emphsize here: Short stroke does not mean more durability. Yes a longer stroke means that you will have more piston speed, but it also means that the engine will tend to make power in a lower RPM range.
What really kills motors is revs. If you can make the same power at 6000RPM as 7000RPM (all other things equal) 6000RPM engine will last longer. Revs wear out valvesprings, piston rings and bearings very quickly.
This is one of the reasons you see Diesel engines going 300K miles without problems, they have a redline of 3500 RPM.

Your previous engine was a rather mis-matched combo, so with a little planning we can definatley get you more power and durability.

What kind of budget are we talking about here?


------------------
1971 Camaro
383 stroker ~500HP
M21 4spd
12" brakes
16x10" Wheels
Autocross competitive
Engine Designer - The Speed Merchant, San Jose, CA
http://www.speedmerchant.com/

Yes, I agree about my combo, it definitely was mis-matched, didn't really know what was in it until I tore it down.....that was after it blew up.

In regards to the post about boost, good head gaskets and properly torqued ARP head bolts/studs, you aren't going to have an issue, that obviously wasn't the case with whoever built my motor.

Yes, rev's kill motors, yes, most production motors have cast rods, but I've seen piles of 600RWHP mustangs with stock bottom ends running at the track and they aren't spitting rods, in fact, from what I've been told, they will split the block before you break a rod or crank, which happens past the 600HP mark (or thereabout).

Now, I know a properly balanced motor will be much more rev friendly than one that is not, and one that is internally balanced will be even more so....

Now, of course there are many factors to take into account in regards to what wears motors, 302's don't wear as fast as 350's, this is not just due to the shorter stroke but to the difference in rod angle, deck height, bank separation angle, and piston speed. If you have a piston that is going basically straight up and down the bore (as opposed to being whipped side to side at the bottom) then the cylinders are not going to wear anywhere NEAR as fast as in a motor with a steep rod angle and a lot of piston acceleration near the bottom of the bore, this causes minor piston slap and pre-mature wear.

Of course intended purpose also comes into account here, as if I'm designing a motor that is primarily for street use, it would be built different than if the car was to go to the track almost exclusively.

I'd like to see my Camaro float around the 10-12 second range, I know it can be done with a 302, H/C/I and some spray, or H/C/I and some boost, and it can be done reliably, and still get good gas mileage, idle well and be 100% streetable.

I know this can also be done with a 327 (also very appealing) what do you think of my 283 crank in a 327 idea besides the fact that finding parts will be a tad difficult?

Yes, you can throw boost at any motor, you can throw spray at any motor, but the small block Ford's (which I hate to admit) in stock trim seem to do it better than most....And, if I intend on doing an el-cheapo 302, I could use the GT-40 heads off an Explorer, as well as the Explorer intake and 60mm TB, stock Mustang cam and make ~300RWHP and 350RWTQ quite easily and for CHEAP, and there's my 12's. Then, get a nice cheap Mustang spray kit (400 bucks) and voila! 11's. I've seen it done with Mustangs, and my car is approx. the same weight as one.... So, I should technically be able to the do the same. AND, with the interchangeability between 302's and 351's, all I'd need would be a different lower intake and I could switch to a 351 if I needed/wanted more cubes later down the road, and of course the Camaro has enough hood room for that...

I think as it stands, my car is better suited to the 302 than those little Fox bodies http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

A 327 would be a great choice, but they are VERY hard to find for a reasonable price, and I'd love to do it with a 283 Crankshaft, (the infamous Chevy 302) but the innability to find parts is what really makes this option difficult.

What makes a 327 so hard to find? We run one in our road racer and it's pretty easy to build one. Off the shelf rods, pistons, GM crank, 350 block, and all the other accessories fit any SBC.

I saw three different supercharged 302 Mustangs blow up on my dyno (from broken rods) in one month. Believe me this is a problem... just because some people get away with it doesn't mean that it should be standard practice.

ALL Gm V8's have forged rods from the factory. To my knowledge Ford is the only company that used cast rods in small blocks.

One could argue that a longer stroke does wear the piston bores more quickly, but look at the number of hi-milage 350's out there... its really not an issue.

If you decide to to a DZ302 style motor you can fairly easily... Both Scat and Crower offer new 3" stroke cranks with large journals that will fit the standard Chevy 350 block.

------------------
1971 Camaro
383 stroker ~500HP
M21 4spd
12" brakes
16x10" Wheels
Autocross competitive
Engine Designer - The Speed Merchant, San Jose, CA
http://www.speedmerchant.com/

I really like the DZ302 out of the 350 .. I'm gonna look into it...

Thanks

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Lowend:
I saw three different supercharged 302 Mustangs blow up on my dyno (from broken rods) in one month. Believe me this is a problem... just because some people get away with it doesn't mean that it should be standard practice.

ALL Gm V8's have forged rods from the factory. To my knowledge Ford is the only company that used cast rods in small blocks.

One could argue that a longer stroke does wear the piston bores more quickly, but look at the number of hi-milage 350's out there... its really not an issue.

If you decide to to a DZ302 style motor you can fairly easily... Both Scat and Crower offer new 3" stroke cranks with large journals that will fit the standard Chevy 350 block.

</font>

What about Buick? (Or Pontiac??)They had cast rods http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

I thought the 5.0, or any SBF had forged rods?? They have the wide parting line on the rods.

Oh and for the Cometic gaskets, ask RickWI about them http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif