Alright so i was at my car club meeting last night and we where talking about our next dyno day and who would come up with the crown this time. Anyway everyone is thinking of going with NOS or a turbo and i was saying screw it I'm staying n/a. Well heres my question is it possible to build a 500-550 hp at the tires with a 350? I know i can build a big block and get that much but I'm wanting to stay small for now. Or better yet whats the most displacement you can get from a standard 350 block. I'm going to be starting of with a 260 hp gm motor that Ive been building around for about 4 yrs now. any recipes or ideas would be great I'm wanting to get this done by September just to shut some people up. thanks Jeremy

Can you get 500 HP from a small block,yes...but it wont be [I]that[I] streetable.

If its a daily driver than your gonna have your hands full and an empty wallet from puttin gas in it all the time.

Some nice aluminum heads,big ass cam,a good single plane intake,and a good 750 or 850 double pumper carb will net you 500 horses.

I give you lots of props on staying N/A and not being a bandwagon-er to the spray or turbo your car...thats the easy way out.

i know with the setup i got now, with a single plane intake it will jump to 500HP, according to dyno2000. But with better heads and matched parts it will be no problem to do it, but it is going to take alot of cash to get it done!

Talk to this guy...
http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/4442/marvdwheelsuphc3.jpg

"Marv D" is his board name.
He can tell you how to do it right the first time. ;)

well this car is only going to be a weekend cruiser with a trip to the track maybe 3 times a year.

i know with the setup i got now, with a single plane intake it will jump to 500HP, according to dyno2000.

If that's the case, you know more then about 99% of the other members of the board on how to do it.

right now i am supposely putting out 463HP with a dual plane, but i take the dyno2000 with a grain of salt.

but if HP is all he is going for single plane intake is the way to go. I am going to wait til i dyno the car, and see how much is really getting to the rear of the car. i am just hoping for anything above 400hp, hell 401 would be great! lol

You're going to need well in excess of 600HP at the flywheel to pull off 500HP at the wheels - and then you have a car that you won't want to drive on the street, not to mention that fact that it won't last all that long spinning it over 7000 RPM which you are defininitely going to have to do to get there.

so its pretty much impossible without spenting 20+ grand to have a 500hp n/a sbc.

so its pretty much impossible without spenting 20+ grand to have a 500hp n/a sbc.

500hp at the wheels is a lot with a small block. Something like that would be pretty radical and not really go to well on the street. More of a trailor queen.
Depending on how heavy your car is 350 at the wheels is somewhere in the 11 second range and yourself money going this route.

so its pretty much impossible without spenting 20+ grand to have a 500hp n/a sbc.


Absolutely not. You will probably drop $9500 to $12k if your looking for 600 on a 'small block' if your not limiting yourself to cubic inches. 650HP from a 406-434 is a snap. Heads that flow over 300cfm, 12:1 compression, 950cfm intake, 260-270ish roller and your in the ballpark. To do it with a 4" bore, I'd HIGHLY suggest you stroke it to 383 and you'll be close to 550-600 with pretty much the same setup.

Like trainman said,,,, your going to need somewhere north of 600 at the flywheel to make 475-500 on a chassis dyno. With a 4" bore that's going to take a lot more work.

Jerremy, your looking WAY beyond te reliability of a few bolt on's to a GM 260HP crate motor. IF that is a 4bolt block they are rated at 400HP, and your pretty much going to toss EVERYTHING except the block. Then your putting $9000 in parts in a $400 casting,, then you are going to try to produce another 1/3 more power than the block is reliable for. Foolishness!!! A Dart /World block is easily good to 800HP+ and $1600 is pretty cheap insurance for your investiment.

i know with the setup i got now, with a single plane intake it will jump to 500HP, according to dyno2000. But with better heads and matched parts it will be no problem to do it, but it is going to take alot of cash to get it done!
79camaro2001,, what heads cam do you have now?

right now i am supposely putting out 463HP with a dual plane, but i take the dyno2000 with a grain of salt.

but if HP is all he is going for single plane intake is the way to go. I am going to wait til i dyno the car, and see how much is really getting to the rear of the car. i am just hoping for anything above 400hp, hell 401 would be great! lol

Wow, I just went and took a look at your site and the description,, Vortec's on a 350, Comp 268H, 750 carb. I'm sorry, I think your going to have a VERY dissapointing day at the dyno.

i know, that is why i don't really expect it! lol

weird how off the dyno2000 is huh. but you would think 400hp is reasonable wouldn't you?

i know, that is why i don't really expect it! lol

weird how off the dyno2000 is huh. but you would think 400hp is reasonable wouldn't you?

at the crank?

It depends on what you want I had a 383 with about 500hp and had like $4000 into it. Build up a 383 or a 434 even an aftermarket block to get 454 wouldn't that be cool. 500hp is not very hard know adays its like common law.
I'm building a sbc i have in my mud truck and have over 400 hp (desktop dyno)
with a cam & trick flow heads and big ol' intake. :bowtie:

i know, that is why i don't really expect it! lol

weird how off the dyno2000 is huh. but you would think 400hp is reasonable wouldn't you?

400 at the crank yes. My buddies Nova we just ran at the track sunday has that same setup w/ an RPM Air Gap and 750 Demon,it went 8.3's before w/ slicks and he put an electric water pump and fan on it,batt. in the trunk and now it goes 7.9's so I would guess 400HP is not unreasonable.

what gears in the rear your buddy have in the nova??

I believe 400hp is easy with a 350ci motor with the right heads and cam. Now, you start talking about 550hp your going to spend some money. If I wanted 550hp, I wouldnt limit myself with CI's. Build one motor and be done with it, too much money in building motor after motor.

alrigt so whats the biggest displacement i can come up with from a stock 350 4 bolt block. i didnt know that a stock block can only handle around 400hp, so i guess i was a little over my head last night while running my mouth. but anyway i know you can buy an aftermarket block and turn it into a 454 but can you do the same with a standerd block? i just think it would be cool to rool up with a classic camaro and put down more power then the 4th gen guys in my club

I know you said you didn't want to but why not build a forced induction motor? You'd get your 600 horsepower a lot easier, and you get the cool hood ornament if you go roots blower ;)

alrigt so whats the biggest displacement i can come up with from a stock 350 4 bolt block.

You can build a 396 using a 3 7/8" stroke crank. If you want a 650HP N/A small block you can have it, but to put that into a stock bock is silly - it's like building a $500K house and putting in a cinder block crawl space because its cheaper than a full basement.

Remember - only a rich man can afford to use inferior parts, because he will need that money to keep building his junk over and over again when it blows up.

hmmm so you say a stock block can only handle like 500 hp or something, I have a factory roller block which is probably about 97ish and plan on spraying it till it gets about 750 hp at the crank. It's a studded 4 bolt with all forged components and would think it could handle the hp. You say otherwise though... what would fail in the block from to much hp?

i didnt know that a stock block can only handle around 400hp,

Now don't go reading one thing and saying / thinking another. The GM 4bolt casting is only RATED to 400HP. Many many MANY out ther making 500 and 600+ and surviving , but it's a crap shoot. The block is simply not rigid enough to not flex under all that stress. When things flex, something is gonna break. Or sometimes the crank just walks around in the block eating bearings, cylinder walls give way under the high pressures and large doses of cylinder pressure (POWER) blows right down past the rings... To fight some of this we have been adding a hard-block filler to the water jackets to help hold the bottom of the block a little more rigid. It helps, but it's a bandaid on a gushing artery. At elevated levels of power output like this,, you need to look what your stuffing all those expensive parts in to.

I saw somewhere, a kit to turn a 350 into a 408 but i dont understand how that is possible. Maybe i just misread it. It was rpmmachines.com or sumtin.

Now don't go reading one thing and saying / thinking another. The GM 4bolt casting is only RATED to 400HP. Many many MANY out ther making 500 and 600+ and surviving , but it's a crap shoot. The block is simply not rigid enough to not flex under all that stress. When things flex, something is gonna break. Or sometimes the crank just walks around in the block eating bearings, cylinder walls give way under the high pressures and large doses of cylinder pressure (POWER) blows right down past the rings... To fight some of this we have been adding a hard-block filler to the water jackets to help hold the bottom of the block a little more rigid. It helps, but it's a bandaid on a gushing artery. At elevated levels of power output like this,, you need to look what your stuffing all those expensive parts in to.

what he said, just think why aluminum blocks make less hp than iron. Well the aftermarket blocks are stonger than iron. I remember reading something and joe sherman said an aftermarket block is worth around 20 hp. But this was a motor making a tad over 600hp. I'm just a guy who comes home with a middlewage paycheck so the cost of an aftermarket block is not worth the money for me. But for the original posters goals should strongly consider one along with big sb cubes.

500 hp is easy with a big block.

what he said, just think why aluminum blocks make less hp than iron. Well the aftermarket blocks are stonger than iron. I remember reading something and joe sherman said an aftermarket block is worth around 20 hp. But this was a motor making a tad over 600hp. I'm just a guy who comes home with a middlewage paycheck so the cost of an aftermarket block is not worth the money for me. But for the original posters goals should strongly consider one along with big sb cubes.

Whats that block for? A honda?:crazy:

There's a lot of disillusioned people on this thread lol :confused:

lol dang it man. Yall ignore my last post on this thread i got mixed up.

hell maybe i do need to go ahead and start building a big block. Thanks for all the info and tips.

500 hp is easy with a big block.



++1

++1

Have you ever even built a BB? :rolleyes:

402 LS2 with AFR, Patriot stage 3, RHS, Trick Flow, L92 head and hydraulic roller cam. 500+ RWHP daily driver with good mileage. Done. Until you want more. Second option, stock LS6 with Procharger D1SC and casting 317 heads, 625-650 RWHP daily driver. Easy stuff with the LS engines and very driveable.

Now don't go reading one thing and saying / thinking another. The GM 4bolt casting is only RATED to 400HP. Many many MANY out ther making 500 and 600+ and surviving , but it's a crap shoot. The block is simply not rigid enough to not flex under all that stress. When things flex, something is gonna break. Or sometimes the crank just walks around in the block eating bearings, cylinder walls give way under the high pressures and large doses of cylinder pressure (POWER) blows right down past the rings... To fight some of this we have been adding a hard-block filler to the water jackets to help hold the bottom of the block a little more rigid. It helps, but it's a bandaid on a gushing artery. At elevated levels of power output like this,, you need to look what your stuffing all those expensive parts in to.
Well said... wanna see pics of some of those roached bearings? I'm going thru one now... Not only the "flash" layer... but the second copper layer breaking-up and coming off in hunks... not a pretty sight. A couple of them are about 90% backing plate... nothing else..
It depends on what you are looking for... and where you look.
I like mouse-motors... but they take a little extra effort;)

Hat's off to ya Marv... youre makin' us proud!
The bright-side is the right-side... LOL!

Marv thank you for all your advice aswell for everyone else throwing there opinons in. Im trying to leanr and read as much as i can hear in the next few months so i can make the correct desicion on what i want to do. Maybe 500rwhp is a little much to be asking but hey i have a goal atleast. any way what about this kit for the heads and cam http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=TFS%2DK314%2D500%2D450&autoview=sku

Listen to Dirty, the LSx motors make power, and lots of it. Buddy of mine is making 440 horse with a 346 (ls1) camaro with heads, cam, intake, chip and exhaust. with his 6 speed, he is still pulling 28mpg highway

i fully understand the possiblities of the ls motor as i have an 01 ss all stock putting 310 to the wheels. but i just dont want all the hassle of stawping in a computer controlled motor right now

not only that...
but ask aceshigh about his LSx swap...
it not as easy and it is expensive...
if you wanna have a 500 daily driver SBC, forger about NA and build a turbo or SC engine...
or if you want FI i would go with a LT1 swap and a procharger (my current day dream)..
i have seen mid 90's camaros and ta for little over 2k on ebay...(crappy body)...you could buy one, get all the parts you need and sell the rest...

Marv is right,get a good after market block to start with. I found that one out the hard way,I built a 408 out of a (207) 350 4 bolt main block.And now I have a GOOD block on the way,and a NEW 4'' stroke crank and rods.
I have also been doing some reading on the new LSX block that GM is releasing or has released that can be bored out to a 4.250 bore and will take up tp a 4.500 stroke,"supposed" to handle up to 1200 hp.I don't know any of this to be a fact,it is just what I have read,with the 4.250 bore and 4.500 stroke that is north of 500 ci out of a small block,Hot Rod mag.,and a couple of other magazines have had stories on this block,and World has one out now that is 4.125 bore and a 4.250 stroke,right out of the box.With a 9.240",
or 9.800" deck

Here is what Jegs has in the catalog on this block.



Designed to Handle Big Boost!
Not only is the Warhawk Block reinforces in all critical areas, but there are provisions for two extra studs per cylinder head. This substantially increases the available clamping force, allowing engine builders to employ high combustion pressure with complete confidence




Superior Bottom-End Strength
The Warhawk takes a cue from the GM C5R racing block in terms of billet steel main cap design, then ups the ante though use of ARP'S highly acclaimed 200,000 psi main studs



454ci with 100% Safety
While 6 liter LS2 and 7 liter LS7 engines are cool, you should know that Worlds Warhawk Block can accommodate a 4.125" bore (with .100" thick dry sleeves backed by .300+ aluminum) and a 4.250" stroke crank without any modifications.




Improved Piston Ring Sealing
The Warhawk has .100" thick Ductile iron sleeves and .300"+ block to prevent ballooning of the sleeve when pressure is applied.

I should be seeing the warhawk in less than a month. Should be interesting. The LSX block is rated for 2500hp. These two blocks will create a new level for the LSx engines. They are sooo easy to make power with that it makes the standard Gen 1 engines look kinda silly at this time. Surprisingly, i dont have an LSx engine in either of my cars YET. :screwup:

Joe Sherman will run a sonic checked 350 4 bolt block up to 650hp if it has the right rotating assembly - in which he means as light as humanly possible.

I would love to build an LSX for my next car...

GM is selling the LSX blocks for right at $2000.00,not too bad if you figure that it "could" be the last block you buy.If you start out at 4.00'' bore(GM block),that would leave you another .250" to play with......

I dyno'd at 479 hp with my 355 n/a small block. I then swapped the Weiand team 'G' intake out for a Super Victor so am now somewhere around 500 hp, so it is possible. It is streetable, but barely. Definitely not a daily driver. It has big Brodix aluminum heads, a big solid cam, a dbl pump Holley at 810 cfm, with the entire rotating assy balanced to 0. It is all clearanced with forged innards, windage trays, valley pans...etc. So it will get very deep into your pockets to do this. But its a gas to drive. Hit the gas and its at 7 grand in a heartbeat.....


Can you get 500 HP from a small block,yes...but it wont be [i]that[i] streetable.

If its a daily driver than your gonna have your hands full and an empty wallet from puttin gas in it all the time.

Some nice aluminum heads,big ass cam,a good single plane intake,and a good 750 or 850 double pumper carb will net you 500 horses.

I give you lots of props on staying N/A and not being a bandwagon-er to the spray or turbo your car...thats the easy way out.

402 LS2 with AFR, Patriot stage 3, RHS, Trick Flow, L92 head and hydraulic roller cam. 500+ RWHP daily driver with good mileage. Done. Until you want more. Second option, stock LS6 with Procharger D1SC and casting 317 heads, 625-650 RWHP daily driver. Easy stuff with the LS engines and very driveable.


Amen to that!!! They are very easy to swap into our cars if you dont overthink it and you carb it. FI swaps require a bit more.

alright ive decided that im going to put a supercharger on my 01 and build it up since ive been reading and it seems the ls seires motors are easier to accoplish my 500rwhp goal.

Buy a clapped out mid '70's to mid '80's 454 P/U/'Burb engine w/ a bad crank and build a 496 for like around $4500 or so and make an easy 550hp!!

And for the price of some over $2000, I will go w/ a Merlin/Dart, or whatever, block and step up to a big standard deck engine and like 700 hp easy...

CHEAPLY to BOOT!

Check Speed-O-Motive for inexpensive BIG BB rotating assemblies and as well as Ohio Crankshaft Company too!!

How's a 571 jobber for you??????????

pdq67

GM is selling the LSX blocks for right at $2000.00,not too bad if you figure that it "could" be the last block you buy.If you start out at 4.00'' bore(GM block),that would leave you another .250" to play with......

Everyone here would cry if they see how easily we scrap these blocks for the slightest quality issue. A very minor core chip on the deck face is scrapped & remelted. Most all scrapped defects can easily be used without a problem. But gone are the days of scrapping functional damage. Today, cosmetic issues are scrapped as well.

This is the new mentality to keep the utmost quality in a GM vehicle these days...... but at the same time, it raises costs.

alright ive decided that im going to put a supercharger on my 01 and build it up since ive been reading and it seems the ls seires motors are easier to accoplish my 500rwhp goal.
Procharger D1SC with a good tune. ALso looks into the ECS setups with the Novi superchargers. Lots of guys are really happy with them. If you would like to step up to a charger I also can get you a deal on a Vortech YSI for a F body. My friend has one for sale. Never been used yet. PM me if interested.