Okay, so it's like the second season I'm debating which engine to buy. Now I had my mind set on a ZZ454 after much consideration.....but now.....I've been given new choices....and that's a hard thing for me to pass up considering.

Target is a street drivable decent economy (mpg of 12+ mpg in the CITY) with a nice chunk of power at my disposal. With that BBC I knew I had to get EFI, which was fine. Heavy duty 700R4 is in the car as of last season. 3.42 rear.

Now I hear the new 500HP LS7 from GM is coming in crate form later in the year....maybe 4-5 months from now. I'm guessing a $8-$10K pricetag. But, I see the LS2 with the '04 LS6 heads is now available for the same price as that ZZ454. It's only 400HP VS the 440HP Listed (500HP dynoed) of the ZZ454.

In the end, I'm considering nitrous as a bonus only used on rare occasions or when taken to the strip maybe once a year or if I get a wild hair up my ass to race.

Here's my 2 choices. What do you knowledgable guys think ?? I know the BBC is a much bigger torque monster. But the LS2 is much lighter and much newer.....so I'm not sure if I'm wasting my time considering this or not. Any opinions are welcome if you consider my goal here.

ZZ454
http://www.sdpc2000.com/suggested_additional_prods_frame.asp?pid=156333

LS2 Gen IV
http://www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/120/products/249549/LS2-60L-Gen-IV-Crate-Engine-As sembly.htm (http://www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/120/products/249549/LS2-60L-Gen-IV-Crate-Engine-Assembly.htm)

ZZ383 Anniversary edition with 500HP....no idea what the price on this puppy is, I just found out about it. Limited...so I'm guessing $$$$
http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/ChevySmallBlockV8s/smallblock50th.html

[This message has been edited by Aceshigh (edited April 03, 2005).]

Aces;
I would have to ask first if you have your heart set on a big block or a small block? What is your car currently set up for?
Personally I have seen too many of those Gen 3 engines pump out some amazing power and get crazy fuel economy. If it were me I would go for the Gen 3 that is of course if you do not mind doing the mods. I would grab a short block and get a great cam and head combo and go for it. It is hard to look away from the advantages of EFI.
Now some will bring the cubic inches arguement to the table but it all depends what you want. Personally I do not think that you need a big block to have a fast car. I bet you could get an 11 second Gen 3 powered car without too much trouble
I made a post about that exact 383 about a week ago and no one answered it at all.

You might be interested in the fact that Scoggin D is producing an LS-2 Stroker package. I cut this from LS1tech's site

I have posted on a few different threads that we would work on a LS2 stroker short block. Well, I worked on it and parts are on the way in big QTY to make this happen at a fair price. We are not only going to build you a very nice short block, but we are also going to send every conversion piece you will need to make it happen.

Short block break down
*LS2 aluminum block (4.000 bore)
*Eagle 4.000 stroke crank
*Crower 6.125 I beam LS1 specific rods
*Diamond forged pistons
*Diamond file fit rings
*Clevitte 77 rod and main bearings
***Balanced & assembled***

We will also ship with every short block....
**LS2 parts:
*front cover
*timming set
*cam sensor
*front cover
*front seal & gasket
*valley cover


Everything listed above for $3,995.00


[This message has been edited by Patrick73RS (edited April 04, 2005).]

Aces,

The answer for you, of course, is "it depends". A few thoughts to stick into your decision making machinery:

- Your Motion paint scheme begs for a rat. You already have the cowl hood, so no hood clearance worries.

- Any LS(whatever) swap is pricier than it first appears. Gotta program the computer, need a wiring harness, need a pressurized, baffled fuel system with a return line, need an aluminum radiator / electric fan setup.

- 383? Fuggedaboutit. At the risk of sounding snobbish, who really cares about a 383? That was a cool trick back in the day but an LS(whatever) or a ZZ454 are far better choices in 2005.

- Unless you have done some liposuction (bumper surgery, door beams, etc.) on your car, it is heavy. Low and mid range torque is where it is at for your application.

If it were me I would go with the ZZ454 with a carb on it for starters then add the fuel injection later as necessary.

Your mileage may vary.


[This message has been edited by MikeM79 (edited April 04, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by MikeM79 (edited April 04, 2005).]

I'll ask how do you want to drive the car ? Weekends only (where gas mileage is no concern). Or daily driver (which include stop and go traffic)?? Something that hugs curves or a straight line tire burner ?

Lots of pluses and minuses with each setup and motor.

Also....what trans are you gonna run ? Rear end ??

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by rscamaro73:
I'll ask how do you want to drive the car ? Weekends only (where gas mileage is no concern). Or daily driver (which include stop and go traffic)?? Something that hugs curves or a straight line tire burner ?

Lots of pluses and minuses with each setup and motor.

Also....what trans are you gonna run ? Rear end ??</font>

I want to drive it EVERYDAY !!!! http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

Okay first, the simple stuff. Presently I hav a Stage II 700R4 with 2800 Stall from Ckperformance in there. Built to handle up to 650HP...but no specs on torque and I know that is what will kill it....so there in lies my worry. Rear = stock 10 bolt, 3.42...if I have to change this...I will. Not sure yet. I know the 3.42 is a great gear for middle action...meaning highway and playin around with.

Second.
I want something more along the lines of a toy I can drive as much as I want without taking a home loan out to cover my gas expenses. I don't want 1000HP, and I don't want only 300-325Hp....what I have now. I was gearin up for 500Hp....and maybe a shot of the juice for the days I have a wild hair up my ass to race or goto the track.

I don't plan on using it for track racing, so the extra weight of the Big Block doesn't really concern me. I don't plan on being a guest star on an episode of Cops either. Although the lighter weight of the LS motors is appealing...it's not really necessary.

My biggest goal here is to get the most cost efficient and mpg efficient power I can. Keeping that in mind, I am planning on fuel injection as a must already.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Patrick73RS:
You might be interested in the fact that Scoggin D is producing an LS-2 Stroker package. I cut this from LS1tech's site
Everything listed above for $3,995.00
</font>

Oh yeah, I'm interested. But I know nothing about these newer engines, and I'm not an engine guru to begin with either.....so consider me a handicap in this area. Okay, so that LS-2 short block is $4,000.....I'm emailing SDPC for the complete engine costs. ECM and everything I need to make it a turnkey motor....final cost is what I'm looking for here. I already know the stats on the ZZ454 total build. Close to $9,000....including the EFI. (What stall would I need for the BBC ??)

Too many people have pushed me into the old school mentality of just throw this 500Hp pig together and you'll get what you want, then when done....you have the power....but get only 5mpg to feed it....I don't want that to happen to me.

In the end, I don't want a trailer queen, and I don't want a gas pig built for the strip only. I want my cake and eat it too, and I know with todays' options it's doable. Just looking for a helpin hand. I want a 500HP car that gets the best economy. Sure I can throw a simple 500HP stroker in there that gets 4mpg.....but...Why when I can do much much better than that.....that's my thoughts on that one.

Jody and I talked quite a bit about a twin turbo setup and the final #'s were just too steep for me at this time. $15,000 for a motor was out of my ballpark. That's if I did most of the work. He told me with the ZZ454 and EFI, with my trans and gears, I could get 18mpg Hwy no problem.

That 383 looked pretty sweet and I figured would have some value in the future being a special edition and all.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by MikeM79:

- Your Motion paint scheme begs for a rat. You already have the cowl hood, so no hood clearance worries.
</font>

You're the 4th person to tell me that....lol

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">
- Unless you have done some liposuction (bumper surgery, door beams, etc.) on your car, it is heavy. Low and mid range torque is where it is at for your application.</font>

My car weigh'd in at 3500lbs in 1997 after I got it home from the military. Was done at a local PD weigh station. I had to weigh it for the moving claim. Wayne, I'm sure you know what I'm talkin about. From what I hear that's on the 'lighter' side....so I don't know how accurate the police weigh station really was.

I'm still researching the LS2 stroker to get the final numbers (turnkey) Patrick.....anything you find let me know. I'm callin SDPC now....I'll have the stats later.


[This message has been edited by Aceshigh (edited April 04, 2005).]

hey aces how about either of these two crate engines with a 2 year/24k mile warranty also and very mild hydraulic roller profiles and pump gas friendly 9.5:1 comp.my neighbor just purchased the 540bbc and it sits in his 32 ford street rod with a 700R4 and 355 gears he's getting 16mpg. he can melt down those big mickey thompson tires easily


Shafiroff Race Engines 540 BBC/675hp

http://www.shafiroff.com/540_675_engine.asp

Shafiroff Race Engines 434sbc/595hp
http://www.shafiroff.com/434_595_engine.asp

------------------
1972 chevy camaro ss 350 sbc 425 hp/356 @ the wheels,350 trans,373 gears,daily driver with restification in progress for the old school / day 2 look
future plans- turning it into a baldwin motion Z30 clone

"IF IT'S TO LOUD YOUR TO OLD"
-------------------------



[This message has been edited by muscl car (edited April 04, 2005).]

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by muscl car:
hey aces how about either of these two crate engines with a 2 year warranty also and mild hydraulic roller and 9.5:1 comp


Shafiroff Race Engines 540 BBC/675hp

http://www.shafiroff.com/540_675_engine.asp

Shafiroff Race Engines 434sbc/595hp
http://www.shafiroff.com/434_595_engine.asp

</font>

I do know about Shafiroff engines, and I do agree, for the power, they are the best. I heard those Rectangle heads just don't do well for my intention, but they are great for hard hittin fuel hungry power. I spoke with them and they told me seriously 6-8mpg if I'm lucky with the cruising version. In real numbers that equates to 108 miles to the tank @ $45 a tank......no way. Not happenin.

However, for my application, they aren't practical. They would be total gas pigs. I already talked to them as well. I'm trying to stick to around $10,000 max with EFI for my motor choice. UNLESS the economical factor is huge for gas, I want to stick to that price range.

Please spare the "You want economy, get a Honda blurbs". People are doing it.

[This message has been edited by Aceshigh (edited April 04, 2005).]

Man I think you will be pretty happy with any of the three. But heres how I see it

Ls2 pros: light weight, fuel injection, cool factor, great potential for mods, good gas milaege

Cons: $$$$$ expensive, need modifications to work=money, need harness to work=$$$

zz454pros: tons of torque, smokey burnouts, big block cool factor, reasonably price parts, tons of potential for mods

Cons: heavy ,less room, need a few mods to run, most likely need a cowl hood, gas
prices

500hp/383 Pros: great power, small block weight, cheapest parts, small block braggin rights
cons: iffy gas mil., not all too much room for power adders if you want to keep it streetable or keep it in budget.

I guess the key thing to find out is how much an LS2 conversion is going to cost me. Out the door.

That LS2 stroker Patrick posted is very interesting. I want to know what it will cost to build that motor with all the harnesses + everything and have it running in my car. Final cost.

I found the specs on the '05 GTO for MPG. 16/city and 21/hwy... Should be close to what I would get.

After much more research into the LS2, I'm not so sure I want it yet. Sounds too complicated and a very big uncharted territory for reliability and rebuilds. The iron BBC has a history of success.....so I guess that is the final note.

[This message has been edited by Aceshigh (edited April 05, 2005).]

Ace - A couple of things
1) you better get your azz in gear otherwise we are going to laugh like hell going by your place in chi town while on Power Tour.

2) You sure have a hard time making decisions!!!!

A thought though. I grew up in Chicago. I can't imagine there is not a wrecked Corvette or Goat sitting in a wrecking yard somewhere around there. There just has to be. Wasn't there a big accident on the Kennedy just a week or so ago, maybe your dream motor was involved???

I think it would be awesome if you could pick up an LS2. It would fit your goals with a 220/230 duration cam and headers no problem.

I suspect with what Pat posted you should be all in for around $10,000 or so. What I would do though is simply go carb for now. What the heck, it's the jetting that's going to get you the mileage plus the overdrive. Will save you a ton of bucks up front really. Good ported heads are going to be $1500 to $2000 and will be the largest expense above the short block. I would really think $10,000 would cover it.

But, hurry your azz up cause we'll be partying hard in Milwaukee the first night of Power Tour.

That being said the big block is still a viable, bolt on option, with tons of potential built in for the future.

Just ask that Traitor Pat what side he's going on soon........ITS NOT THE BRIGHT SIDE THAT'S FOR SURE!!!!!

Hey Pat, I posted on your radiator thread with some measurements on my Be Cool radiator.

Ace,
Rectangular heads on a 540 are the ONLY way to go...

The 540 is pulling enough air, and makes enough low end torque anyway, that the same rules don't apply as to a 454....

You wanna make it easy,
the 454 and 700 will make your power, get the mileage (despite what some would believe, I will guarantee 18 MPG, my 427 with too much fuel pressure and loading up at idle and 200-4R does that).

If you aren't afraid of the fab work to install the LS motor it would be cool too, the factory EFI on those is awesome and will accept quite a few changes before any major programming is needed.
Biggest reason most guys mess with it is for the rev limiter.

MIkeM79 has done the LS swap so take his experience for the first hand knowledge that it is.

I like both...

My current project is a BBC powered one, but I've alredy promised the wife when I get back I will do her either a Shelby Mustang or Cobra.

If I do a Cobra it will be LS powered http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Rick WI:
Ace - A couple of things
2) You sure have a hard time making decisions!!!!

A thought though. I grew up in Chicago. I can't imagine there is not a wrecked Corvette or Goat sitting in a wrecking yard somewhere around there. There just has to be. Wasn't there a big accident on the Kennedy just a week or so ago, maybe your dream motor was involved???</font>

Dude, you have no idea. I'm the absolute worst when it comes to picking something out. I typically buy the best of anything. So when you present me with too many options, you can sit and watch my head spin.....it's pretty sad actually. I swear I have A.D.D. sometimes.

I left the fall season locked in with the ZZ454 idea. Now that it's crunch time...I'm stuck here wondering if it's "The Best" option for my money. I do like that LS2 stroker idea,....but I can't figure out what it would cost to have it built. I'm no engine builder....so I need to know that. I think SDPC told me they have a long block assembly available. Rick, do you have anyone you trust that could do it ?? I don't know anyone out by me well enough to trust their work.

I just want to know what it's going to cost me to drop it ready to rock into my car. I don't have the time to figure out how to do it myself. I work 60 hours a week, + school full time, + a lady to please....that kills my free time....AND I'M SINGLE!!!! I thought married life would be rough.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by jakeshoe:
You wanna make it easy,
the 454 and 700 will make your power, get the mileage (despite what some would believe, I will guarantee 18 MPG, my 427 with too much fuel pressure and loading up at idle and 200-4R does that).</font>

That's the samething Jody told me. I do believe Hwy miles it will get that. I'm just curious what I would get around town. I swear sometimes I just need a smack in the head to get things moving. I'm 80% for the BBC still.

Do NOT worry though Rick, I WILL be on the Power Tour

[This message has been edited by Aceshigh (edited April 05, 2005).]

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by jakeshoe:

You wanna make it easy,
the 454 and 700 will make your power, get the mileage (despite what some would believe, I will guarantee 18 MPG, my 427 with too much fuel pressure and loading up at idle and 200-4R does that).</font>

Alright Jake, how many miles to the tank to you get with that 427 and that 2004R....i think this will be enough to clinch the idea if it's high enough for me. Is that a carb'd setup too ??

It is a 800 cfm Q-jet.
I haven't driven it much lately but last time I figured it it was right at 18.
I don't let it get too low, the fuel sender has quit so I fill it.

The Q-jet doesn't like the excessive fuel pressure, and I have a restriction on the return to the tank so cannot reduce the pressure where it needs to be.

I'm fixing to rob the fuel supply system off the chevelle and go back to a more stock setup so it should do better. Between excessive fule pressure and a sticking TV valve it's seen lots of 6000 rpm plus lately and not a lot of driving.

The key is the OD, and a carb that is properly calibrated, a Q-jet works best because it has a true variable load sensitive fuel metering. A Holley works more like a on/off light switch with it's power valves, and a Q-jet works like a potentiometer.

Don't worry about the BBC and fuel mileage. It will get you what you want with the 700 and 3.42's. Assuming you keep cam specs reasonable.

I like what Rick said in the fact that you could go carb in the beginning and save a bunch of cash then move towards EFI later on.

The lightweight enigne and the ability to move it back a little in the engine bay for a little better weight distribution also helps as well.

If youa re looking for a total cost call up Street & Performance and see what they say.
www.hotrodlane.cc (http://www.hotrodlane.cc)

It would not be the easiest but hey it would be one hell of a package.

With the possibility to change a lot of parts between LS 1/2/6 that gives you more options as well.

There are a lot of guys using these engines is really quick cars and driving them to work every day. I think if you are concerned with fuel economy then the small block is hard to beat. Besides do not be suprised when oil hits 80 dollars a barrel in the near future.

The more I think of it that stroker package with a carb on top is looking sweeter all the time. EFI in the future IF you think you want it. The more options you have available to you in the future the better it is.

Try and get behind the wheel of a car with an LS 1/2/6 in it and see what you think. Go and test drive a GTO to give yourself an idea.

I had the same problem as Aces, but finally settled on the Shaf 540 ( as soon as I pry the shell out the body shop ). To hell with mileage, It ain't my driver, it's my toy.

But heres an idea that hasn't been mentioned :

He could get an aluminum small block 427. Comes out under $10k. Low weight, cheap parts ( except for the block, at $4500.00 ). Plenty of torque. Even with a set of AFR CNC'd 210's on top, he stall has almost $4k for the good stuff inside. Carb to start with, EFI later. Bolts right up.

He could do the swap in a day, and be a couple of hundred pounds lighter on the nose.

------------------
Soon to be BBC, TH-400 w/2000 stall, 3.73 diff w/ Powertrax locker.

[This message has been edited by My73LT (edited April 05, 2005).]

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by jakeshoe:
a Q-jet works best because it has a true variable load sensitive fuel metering. A Holley works more like a on/off light switch with it's power valves, and a Q-jet works like a potentiometer.

Don't worry about the BBC and fuel mileage. It will get you what you want with the 700 and 3.42's. Assuming you keep cam specs reasonable.

</font>

Okay, well then I'll start out with the carb'd version for now.

Question. I have a Carter 750 on my current 350. Now after reading Hot Rod's article on the manifold swaps + carb swaps on the ZZ454, they stated that nothing bigger than a 750cfm was necessary to get the 500hp out of it with the Air Gap or RPM. Which is what it basically comes with anyways.

So is this carb going to work for me ?? Or do I need to look into a Demon or Q-jet ?? For some reason, I remember alot of people saying that the Q-jets sucked. I can't remember. Do I need to look into another carb ??

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Patrick73RS:
Try and get behind the wheel of a car with an LS 1/2/6 in it and see what you think. Go and test drive a GTO to give yourself an idea.</font>

I think I'm going to do that actually.

[This message has been edited by Aceshigh (edited April 05, 2005).]

Problem with the Carter is there are not too many folks that can off support on tuning them.

I myself would go wtih a Holley HP. I'm totally biased though.

As to total cost involved that's really impossible as how many conversions have really been done? It's just too new of a conversion for any real hard numbers. Like motor mounts and oil pan? Do the mounts need to be fabbed up? No big deal, just time (labor cost).

If your real serious I could talk to Jon and see what he could find out for cost to do it at the shop. We're doing an LS1 for the power tour wtih new heads cam and a bunch of other goodies so your motor would have company. Getting it all done by June though could be tight, but doable I suspect.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Rick WI:
Problem with the Carter is there are not too many folks that can off support on tuning them.

As to total cost involved that's really impossible as how many conversions have really been done? It's just too new of a conversion for any real hard numbers. Like motor mounts and oil pan? Do the mounts need to be fabbed up? No big deal, just time (labor cost).

If your real serious I could talk to Jon and see what he could find out for cost to do it at the shop. We're doing an LS1 for the power tour wtih new heads cam and a bunch of other goodies so your motor would have company. Getting it all done by June though could be tight, but doable I suspect.</font>

Well....if you could ask him, what the LS2 stroker specs Patrick gave above, and let me know what he would charge to build it, and slap it in. Not sure what heads to consider yet....LS6's or AFR's (if they have them yet) I'd be reeeeeeally interested. If he can't do it by the power tour, it's not a big deal. I can wait until AFTER the tour for the motor IF it's what I want. I just have to find out what the intake + FI unit + wiring harnesses + ECM will cost me too.

In fact, if you want, just email me his info, and I'll call him and tell him you referred me, just give him a heads up, and we'll talk turkey. I gotta get the ball rollin on this thing quick here if the LS2 is the way I choose to go.

Get me a round about figure and I'll get back to you ASAP.

The motor in it now isn't spectacular but it's only 2 years old and definitely decent.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">
I myself would go wtih a Holley HP. I'm totally biased though.</font>

Aren't Holley's a major PITA to keep tuned ?? I only ask that because I used to have a Holley 600 double pump on my 327 and it never stayed tuned.

[This message has been edited by Aceshigh (edited April 05, 2005).]

OK here is another thought, and I did talk to Jon at the shop as well.

Another option, along the lines of Pat's thougths would be to talk with Scoggin-Dickey and just have them build the whole damn thing for you. SD offers upgrades on heads, cam, whatever you want. I have never heard of an issue with their builds so it would seem a pretty safe bet. Costwise might be your best option as they have everything under one roof, parts and all. Their engines include the fuel injection as well.

Jon would also be happy to work something up for you on the engine and/or install and get things running for you. He can work up the cost on the motor no sweat but the install and fab would be a best guess.

What I would do Ace is talk to Scoggin and see what they say. Their cost would at least quickly get you in the ballpark and then take it from there. Remember though that a 620 HP 572 is a shade over $12,000. Damn, hope I didn't muddy the waters on ya again.

You can get ahold of Jon at 608-825-1060 and he can talk with you when you get a chance.

OH, and on the carbs its just that on the dyno, as well as on the road, the HP's just seem to flat work time and time again. They have a very nice fuel curve from the bottom to the top. I think they are very easy to tune and see then stay in tune for many miles.

We did have a 413 on the dyno today with a Race Demon and after jetting it in it, as well, had a very nice fuel curve, .35 brake specific on the bottom up to .42 to .45 on the top. Which is very good for the type of motor that was on the dyno. It was still a bit rich but we left it, 600 horse is 600 horse out of a ported iron head Sportsman II small block. No need to beat a race motor any harder than it needs to be. The final jetting tune will be done on the track as it's well within a couple of jet sizes. That Demon worked very well.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Rick WI:
Another option, along the lines of Pat's thougths would be to talk with Scoggin-Dickey and just have them build the whole damn thing for you.

What I would do Ace is talk to Scoggin and see what they say.

Remember though that a 620 HP 572 is a shade over $12,000. Damn, hope I didn't muddy the waters on ya again.
</font>

Thanks for the info Rick....I didn't know they build engines there. I'll have to inquire about that. I prefer to have them fired up and dialed with a dyno sheet before I get it so that would be a great thing.

The ZZ572 is what you told me about when I first talked to you awhile back. THAT is what spurred the search and finding of the ZZ454. That ZZ572 is $12K, but I'm trying to do the motor WITH EFI for that amount. I don't want to spend more then....maybe $6-$9 on the motor itself. Besides, 620Hp would be great to play with...but not for my goal here,...it would suck gas like a pig too. I'm willing to sacrifice HP here to gain economy...but I want 400-500Hp range, and within my price spending limitations. Key thing is I want to drive my car and enjoy it, not gripe about filling it up every day with $45 per tank. THAT is what would make me sell it. Then I'd have to go buy the Subaru WRX sti. Don't want to do that.

I'll call SDPC tomorrow, and if I don't get what I'm looking for out of them, I'll contact Jon. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by Aceshigh (edited April 06, 2005).]

Aces;
The Car Craft mag that I have infront of me shows the Eddy single plane manifold (Victor Jr.) and ignition box (PN 2908) for the LS-1/6 series engines which should be priced slightly more than the dual plane version which sits at $699.95

I think this should be compatable with the LS 2 as well. No matter how you slice it the carb version will be cheaper (no tricky fuel system either) and if/when you change to EFI you will surely be able to sell the carb set-up (another bonus).

www.ls1tech.com (http://www.ls1tech.com) has a section for hybrides (spelling) and you can get a lot of info for a conversion there.

www.hotrodlane.cc (http://www.hotrodlane.cc) has a 2005 catalog on their site which can help you look up prices for parts related to those engines.

www.agostino-racing.com (http://www.agostino-racing.com) (Agostino Racing Engines) has some serious packages for heads and cams.

I came close to buying a complete drop out LS-1 from a guy with dyno sheets for 465 RWHP but I got a new LS 6 instead. www.ls1.com (http://www.ls1.com) has a bunch of guys selling engines, long blocks, short blocks etc...

With good small blocks getting harder to find in some places the gen 3 engines are only going to get more popular.

Better fuel consumption, lightweight, and TONS of aftermarket stuff available (more and more all the time) I can't wait to get my LS-6 in my car.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Patrick73RS:
I came close to buying a complete drop out LS-1 from a guy with dyno sheets for 465 RWHP but I got a new LS 6 instead. www.ls1.com (http://www.ls1.com) has a bunch of guys selling engines, long blocks, short blocks etc...</font>

Who did you almost buy that 465 RWHP LS-1 from ?? How much was it, and what was it built like??

Where did you get your LS-6 and how much did it run you?? EFI or no?? That intake is $700 ?? Screw that noise, might as well save for the EFI then.

Aces I found that engine on LS1.com in the for sale section a while back. At the time he wanted 8000 minus the harness. If memory serves he had stage 3 heads and had them worked on even more and a cam. Not to mention the common things like the exhaust, larger throttle body etc...Point is that there are lots of engines out there to be had.

The intake I mentioned comes with the distributorless ignition system included. Bolt it on and go and you should be able to run it without any mods to the fuel system. If you price the EFI and all the mods you have to do to the fuel system you will not write off that intake so quick

I got my LS6 straight from GM at the parts counter and it is in the box waiting for me to install it (no time now).

Another vote for the LS. Light makes might. http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif A relatively mild 224* cam, and good ported heads on an LS1, and you're close to 500hp at the crank.

I'm still throwing around the LS1 idea, but I have NO time currently. And, I damn sure ain't paying someone to do it for me.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Todd80Z28:
And, I damn sure ain't paying someone to do it for me.</font>

It's all a matter of time at your disposal.
I don't have it. I would preferrably do this all myself..but I don't have the time. Gotta do what ya gotta do, ya know....

Guys,

I have a couple of more pennies to throw in.

I took my 71Z LS1/T56 project for its first real drive yesterday, 30 miles or so. Up to this point it had not yet been inspected and my test track consisted of the dead end street I live on and I never got out of third gear.

The engine is 100% stock from a 2000 Trans Am. The only mods were to remove the a/c compressor, ditch the EGR and air pump setup, ditch the cat converters and run 2 1/2 inch dual exhaust with a crossover pipe which is probably a better exhaust than a stock 4gen car. I even kept the stock exhaust manifolds. The car has 3.42 gears, same as a 4gen six speed car. The harness and computer were reworked by a pro. Even I could get it to work, so how hard could it be?

Anyway, the thing drives great. The engine is so smoooooooth that it is hard to believe to it puts out the kind of power it does. The car almost feels like it propelled by an electric motor, not an internal combustion engine. The six speed gearbox is fantastic also, 70 mph only takes about 1,600 rpm. Nice.

Just a windy way of saying that the LS1 approach has lots going for it, especially if fuel economy is a consideration.

Mike what do you think of the power for a car of that weight, considering that it is stock (or close to it)? What type of engine did you have in it before? How do you compare the two?

I have myt LS6 that I plan on putting stage 2 heads, cam, MAFS and larger throttle body with possibly a better intake. Looking to see what I can expect from it. I would LOVE to get about 430 to the wheels

Patrick,

Relatively speaking the 71Z is light. No a/c, none of the heavier bumpers that came along later, and (of course) an LS1 in place of an all iron small block.

The stock LS1 probably puts out close to 350 crank hp as it sits in the car. My best guess is that with good traction and a good driver (somebody else driving in other words) the car would be in the very low 13's at about 105 trap speed. Not bad condsidering how docile and fuel efficient it is.

Dunno if that is "enough" for other people, but it is fine for me for the moment. It would runs circles around a stock 70 or 71Z with its old school solid lifter 350.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by MikeM79:

Dunno if that is "enough" for other people, but it is fine for me for the moment. It would runs circles around a stock 70 or 71Z with its old school solid lifter 350.

</font>

I'm beginning to think it is for me. Especially with the Energy situation. Might leave my 350 alone for now and slap on some AFR's. So indecisive......I swear to God.

Thanks Mike!!!

Aces do not feel bad about it after all it is a big investment and a lot of time is required even if you are getting someone to do it for you.
I think that the end will justify the means when you are talking about a Gen 3 engine.

Of course there are people who live and die by there old engines wheather they are big or small blocks.

I fail to see how the Gen 3 is not the best option for the long term

Aces have you heard anything from Scoggin D? I would be interested to hear what they can put together fo you. Keep us posted please.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Patrick73RS:

Aces have you heard anything from Scoggin D? I would be interested to hear what they can put together fo you. Keep us posted please.</font>

I called them but all the "guesstimates" the guy provided were in the range of $8500 for a built LS2 Stroker, and yeah, that's with the LS6 heads. THat included everything except the ECM and harnesses.

He said with those, it would be $1500 more.

He told me to email them a list of what I want done, and they will reference all the data requested , and give me a price list.

Once I get back to work Sunday, I'll email them, and then once they respond, I'll post all info they give me. Cool ??

It will only cost $2,000 more than that ZZ454 with EFI....but it's an upfront cost rather than just getting the ZZ454 and laaater going to EFI.....so I have to check the financial situation out. I'm considering sellin my house presently and buying bigger...only 2 miles away.

Aces I have read that SD offers the same stroker package with an upgrade to a Callies crank and rods for just over 4100. Follow the post in www.ls1tech.com (http://www.ls1tech.com)

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Patrick73RS:

I have myt LS6 that I plan on putting stage 2 heads, cam, MAFS and larger throttle body with possibly a better intake. Looking to see what I can expect from it. I would LOVE to get about 430 to the wheels</font>

With those mods, I'm guessing about 450 to the flywheel. WELL into the 12's. A bone stock LS1 is about 400 to the flywheel.

Not too sure what you mean there. Some LS1's only came with 320+ HP, some 345 and so on. My LS6 from the factory comes with 405 and have been know to be a little conservative on the numbers. I would hope that with new heads, cam, intake, TB, MAFS and tunning that I would pick up more than 45HP. In the long run I would like to put about 425-430 to the wheels. Probably have to go to stage 3 for that, but we will see.

If you're bound and determined to go the LS1 or LS6 route... here is a shop local to me that has some damn nice packages... I've seen them run.

http://www.vincihighperformance.com/index2.htm



------------------
Soon to be BBC, TH-400 w/2000 stall, 3.73 diff w/ Powertrax locker.

The coolest camaro that ive seen in person is a guy I know. He has a 67 with the zz454 and a 6 speed. He could easily drive that thing everyday. With 4.10 rears he gets like 12mpg. The car idles smooth and still has plenty of power. He was also switching to efi this year. That car was super drivable for any situation. For a car that could be daily driven and has to have lots of hp I think the zz454 is a good way to go.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">With 4.10 rears he gets like 12mpg.</font>If 12mpg is good in a 6-speed car, you need your head examined. http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

Aces- I'd consider the used LS1 route, to be honest. You can pick up a low miles 2000 motor, complete, for around $3000. Accessories, harness, and all. Get it in, and get it running- that's the hard part.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Todd80Z28:
]If 12mpg is good in a 6-speed car, you need your head examined. http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

Aces- I'd consider the used LS1 route, to be honest. You can pick up a low miles 2000 motor, complete, for around $3000. Accessories, harness, and all. Get it in, and get it running- that's the hard part.</font>

Yeah, I saw the 12mpg thing too.....I was hoping he was talkin city, til I noticed the rear gear #.

You know Todd, I considered the used LS1 route, but here's my beef with it.
#1. Not much power, and why go for a motor that is putting out as much as my Gen 1 350 is now??

#2. Cost of a custom rebuild, + cost of used engine purchase, now I'm in the ballpark range of buying a new Crate BBC. But I have the added bonus of FI. Minus the cost of mod'n my car to accept an LS1.

So in the end, I didn't see it as a viable option to get my final desired result. The LS2 stroker is, but I STILL haven't gotten any word back from SDPC after I emailed them my list. Still waiting......

Jakeshoe assured me 18mpg hwy is doable with a BBC so did Jody (camcojb) so I'm assuming I couldn't be too bad for city cruizin as long as I keep my 3.42 rear, and my OD unit.

Ace,
I've spoken to you about this before.
Everybody knows I'm a die hard BBC guy.
I also have the first hand experience with getting a BBC and OD combo to get decent mileage.

BUT...

It would be hard to beat an LS1 package for your purposes.

You have to weigh several factors.

If you sub out the work, the LS1 is gonna be $$$ for labor on the install, and $$ upfront for the motor.

ANY good shop can put in a ZZ454 crate. It takes an exceptional shop to do the LS1 swap. The LS1 is also going to take more labor time.
So be prepared for expensive there.

However,
my next project will be an LS1.

See, the labor costs is what is detering me from doing the LS1 or LS2.....I don't know how to do it myself, and I don't have the time to figure it out either.

I gotta do what I gotta do ya know.....the BBC is still my #1 choice, I haven't moved the money from the locked Savings account yet for that reason too. I know once I move it, it will be on fire and have to be used. I know myself too well.

Okay, Patrick, this is the email I got back from SDPC on that LS2 stroker.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Thanks for your email. This is what I can offer you....


402 LONG BLOCK

Block: Aluminum LS2
Crank shaft: Callies 4340 steel 4.000 stroke
Rods: H beam Callies w/ARP 2000 rod bolts
Pistons: Diamond -2cc flat top
Bearings: Clevitte 77 "H" rods & mains
Head gaskets: Cometic .040 thick 4.135 bore
Cylinder heads: AFR 225cc/72cc (CNC ported)
****"Comp Cams 921-16 spring upgrade"****
Head studs: ARP 2nd design
Main studs: ARP
Rocker arms: Harland Sharp 1.7 full roller
Pushrods: Manley 4130 chrome moly .080 wall
Oil pump: blueprinted & ported LS6
Cam shaft: Crane hydraulic roller
Oil pan: GM F body (stock)
Pick up tube: GM F body (stock)

Other parts included: rear cover, gasket, and bolts. oil pump bolts, cam retainer, cam retainer bolts, cam gear bolts, oil pump seal, windage tray & nuts, oil pan gasket & bolts,

Labor includes: Balancing assembly, mill cylinder heads to get 11.1 to 1 compression, assemble long block.

This will also include a shipping crate & cradle

YOUR COST $10,600.00

Let me know what you think. We could make this a little cheaper for you with a few different parts, but the total will be a min. of $9,500.00

Thanks,
Kris Jones
Scoggin-Dickey Parts Center
kjones@sdpc2000.com
800-456-0211 ext-353
</font>

Thanks Aces! Not cheap but then again anything worth it rarely is.

That engine should fly and I would suspect that the tq would be excellent right off idle.

What type of cam are you looking at?

Seems like SD offers quite few engine packages. I did not think they offered that much in the way of custom packages

You can't beat the LSx motors as far as power and weight savings. Even us BBC guys know that http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

I've consided the LS motor for my 73....but why give in so early ? http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif I'll wait to hear what MikeM79 has to say after his is on the road for a while....I drove a 2000 Z-28 when I got my 99 (V-6)...and lemme tell you the smile I had plastered http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif heh heh heh.....plus an aluminum motor....that'll save you about 100lbs over a regular SBC....

Anyways....I guess once you get the car set up for the engine, swapping to a powerful replacment isn't going to take much....so who knows.....maybe I might do that too just to save weight.....I gotta go fast around the corners http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">You know Todd, I considered the used LS1 route, but here's my beef with it.
#1. Not much power, and why go for a motor that is putting out as much as my Gen 1 350 is now?? </font>#1. I'm betting you are overestimating the power of your mild 350.
#2. You are certainly underestimating the power of the LS1 in a retrofitted form. They are dynoing, stock out of crate, around 402hp at the flywheel.

Get the used one, put a 218-220* cam in it, run it through a set of long tubes and out a decent dual 2.5" setup, hook it to your 700R4 with 3.42s, and proceed to run 12s with traction. I am not certain of many things in this world, but I am certain of this. http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Todd80Z28:
#1. I'm betting you are overestimating the power of your mild 350.
#2. You are certainly underestimating the power of the LS1 in a retrofitted form. They are dynoing, stock out of crate, around 402hp at the flywheel.</font>

#1. I sent the specs to numerous people on my motor, and I'm guessing 300-350Hp for my motor. Exact....no, but it's a rough estimate with the components.

#2. I don't see where you are getting your figures for 402HP for an LS1 in "retrofitted form"....not sure what that means either. From what I see the LS1 in stock form puts 330HP out,....so I don't see the 62 HP gains you're talking about. Explain....I'm all ears...it's a viable option. Are you saying just with a cam swap out there is a 62HP gain??

[This message has been edited by Aceshigh (edited April 15, 2005).]

Ace,
The stock LS1's are commonly putting over 300 TO THE WHEELS.
Some are putting right at their net flywheel rated HP to the wheels.

Let me put it in perspective.
Almost all hotrodders are still doing HP based on a gross rating like the factory did in the musclecar era.

i.e. your 350 is putting out 350 HP to the flywheel, probably with dyno headers, NO accessories, breathing 70 degree air, etc.

If you attached the accessories, ran it on the 100+ degree underhood air, through generic headers and an exhaust, you might have 275 at the flywheel. Maybe 225 at the wheels.

These are all guesses, but if onovakind pops in, he runs a rear wheel dyno and can relate his first hand experiences.

OEM's went to the "net" rating in 1972, and although the motors had often not changed from 1971, the rated HP dropped ALOT.
This was still flywheel HP, but the motor was rated as installed in the car, all accessories, exhaust, etc.

Also just to be included in the history lesson, 1970 was the height of the HP wars, and the next year all the compression dropped. So an LT1 in 1970 was 360 HP IIRC, then was dropped to about 330 in 1971 because of the compression going from 11-1 to 9.25-1.
Then in 1972 it dropped to the "net" rating of 255.


The LS1's are putting over 300 to the rear wheels, they ARE making 350+ at the motor STOCK.

And yes a cam swap WILL make 50+ hp on an LS1.

What jakeshoe said. To add to that, one of the mags just did a test on an LS1 Crate motor, from Sallee Chev, I think. It was stock. They threw it on the dyno, with headers/dual exhaust, and it laid down 402hp at the flywheel. This is with the factory cam, which has &lt;200* duration at .050"!!
The engines are grossly underrated from the factory.
So, I stick by my assertion that stock LS1 + 218-220* cam, + headers = 12 second 2nd gen.

Seriously, I cannot fathom how you'd be disappointed in a warmed-over LS1. It'll be quite enough for a street machine, IMO. And, I'm guessing 16/24 is doable with the 700.

P.S. I have an engine supposed rated at 325-330hp. Not even close to the pull of the LS1 cars- I've lined up with them at the track a few too many times.

Okay, I see now. So it's 402 without all the accessories....you know that's something I never thought about....the dyno runs they do are free of all that excess....never crossed my mind. Hmmm...doh

Learn something new everyday.
I'll check into the rebuild costs of an LS1 to a higher spec motor, but minimal costs, and see what I can get for $6,000 final cost. That would be sweet if possible then. I don't need 500HP....It would be nice though, but I'll take 16/24 with 400HP anyday. Plus the fuel injection will most likely be part of the purchase...bonus.

There's goes another wrench into my final choice......again.

Anyone have an estimate on what kind of costs for labor this LS1 being put into my car will incur ?? So many of you are pro LS1 I might as well take a serious consideration towards it now. I just have to find one with everything I need, and I'll be honest and say all the new high tech crap intimidates me because I don't know what I would be getting myself into for labor costs.

[This message has been edited by Aceshigh (edited April 16, 2005).]

Come to Carlisle and I will let you drive my 71Z with a stock LS1 / T56. You will be pleasantly surprised.

A stock LS1 puts out about the same power as a typical warmed over 350 (vortecs, rpm intake, 220 deg cam, headers). Throw the same mods at an LS1 and it easily leapfrogs the old school engine while weighing much less.

The LS1 swap is not that bad. It is sorta like putting together a barbeque set you bought a Home Depot. The first one takes you two hours to do, but if you had another one to do it would take 15 minutes. So, if you decide to have it done be sure the guy doing it has experience. Sure, any mechanic or serious hobbyist can do it, but you don't want to pay by the hour for someone else's OJT.

Relatively speaking, a 2gen Camaro is an easy transplant recepient, much easier than a 1gen car, for example.

Hey Mike - you think it'd be that much easier if you were swapping in an aftermarket subframe at the same time ??

Wayne,

If the aftermarket subframe was setup for an LS1 engine specifically then you would eliminate the a/c compressor clearance problem and well as the motor mount adapter issue. Neither is really that big of a deal and would not by themselves cause me to seek an aftermarket subframe.

However, if you were to get an aftermarket frame for the other usual reasons then it makes sense to be sure it is setup for an LS1 in order to avoid the aforementioned hassles.

I wish GM would have cast the LS1 block with multiple motor mount boss locations to make retrofitting easier. Sorry, too much common sense so early in the morning.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by MikeM79:

However, if you were to get an aftermarket frame for the other usual reasons then it makes sense to be sure it is setup for an LS1 in order to avoid the aforementioned hassles.
</font>

Which is the cheaper route ?? Meaning labor costs + parts.

Retrofitting or changing the frame to accept it easier ??

I have www.ls1speed.com (http://www.ls1speed.com) 15 mins from my house, but these guys are so damn expensive I'm leary of even bothering calling them for a quote.

EDIT: I just sent them an email for an install quote.....here we go....I know it's going to be ridiculous. http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/frown.gif

I want to know what simple power adding mods I can do without a total rebuild. I'll start another thread on it.

[This message has been edited by Aceshigh (edited April 16, 2005).]

Aces pick up a copy of HOT ROD (May issue) as there is a breakdown of the Gen 3 blocks both steel and Al. Talks about the pros and cons of the blocks and the block to beat according to them is the 2003-04 LS6. Check it out as it is not a bad read. I can scan it and send it to you (email me if you want that).
The first Gen 3's pushed out about 320hp and when they ended the LS1/6 they were at 405 which is about a 14% increase. Not too bad when you consider that is from the factory. It is extremely easy to put 400HP to the wheels with these engines.
In all honesty do you really need the LS2? You will be paying a lot of extra dollars for the "Newer" engine and the LS6 already has more HP.
Personally you can save a lot of cash getting an LS6 short block, dumping the AC, topping off the engine with the cam, heads and intake of your choice.
Do not sweat the accessories as they are all over the place new and used!

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Patrick73RS:

Personally you can save a lot of cash getting an LS6 short block, dumping the AC, topping off the engine with the cam, heads and intake of your choice.
Do not sweat the accessories as they are all over the place new and used!</font>

I am checking out the LS6 as well, I didn't say that, but I was. I figured it would be a chunk more just because it was the Z06 motor...you know the ooooh ahhhh factor in the cost.

By the way, YGM. Hell, If I can get a mod'd LS6 or LS1 with 450HP...I'd be happy as long as I stay within my budget.

By the way Mike, I have no idea where Carlisle is, but I'm in the Chicago area, so I don't think that is close to me. I'm going on the power tour tho.....if I choose the LS1/LS6 as my motor....it won't be done by then....unfortunately.

Keeping the existing subframe is by far the easier and cheaper thing to do. Motor mount adapaters can either be fabbed for a few bucks or purchased for under $100. The a/c compressor can be relocated up high with a custom bracket or you can notch the subframe to clear it then weld it closed.

I'm with the other guys. The LS1 bone stock with the 198 @ .050 cam is good for a solid 400 on an engine dyno. Add a cam, and maybe blend the bowls in the heads, and you're at 450 easy, maybe 475! And that's just for starters. You could find a set of LS6 heads and work them over, then click off an 11.XX run! And THEN, Powerdyne, Vortech, and others have centrifugal superchargers that will put you in the 550 hp range. SO much potential, and at 380-400 lbs., about 200 lbs less than a conventional sbc. It's a win win situation.

Oh yeah, I forgot, they now make 400+ cubic inch stroker cranks! Now were talking SERIOUS torque and you get to keep the HP! Yeah it costs money, but you can't take it with ya! http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Good luck on your decision!!

[This message has been edited by 1978LT (edited April 16, 2005).]

Okay, so here's where I'm at now. I've looked at Ebay options for an LS6, and the average cost is around $6500 +, ....example

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7968536040&cate gory=33615 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7968536040&category=33615)
It looks like they did thorough testing on this one. Comp tested every cylinder.

I guess, now I have to decide if it would be cheaper to build up the LS1 or take the LS6 already with 405HP, and then check on mods for that too.

Or this one.....these guys look reputable with their record, and the motor is new....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7968110685&cate gory=33615 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7968110685&category=33615)

I just need a kick in the ass.....but I think these guys are the ones I will be buying from if I decide on the LS6. Can I do a Cam change on this to beef it up too without losing too much of the economy I'm keeping in mind ??

If I could get close to what Todd stated for the LS1 with this LS6, and a minor mod....I'm sold. I'll have to take my down payment for my next bike to do this....dammit.

Opinions ?? Is it better to go this route??

[This message has been edited by Aceshigh (edited April 16, 2005).]

Also keep in mind that the newer LS2 & beyond stuff is "drive by wire" meaning there's no direct link/cable between the GO-pedal & throttle blade ...it's all controled by the ECM.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Aceshigh:
Okay, so here's where I'm at now. I've looked at Ebay options for an LS6, and the average cost is around $6500 +, ....example

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7968536040&cate gory=33615 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7968536040&category=33615)
It looks like they did thorough testing on this one. Comp tested every cylinder.

I guess, now I have to decide if it would be cheaper to build up the LS1 or take the LS6 already with 405HP, and then check on mods for that too.

Or this one.....these guys look reputable with their record, and the motor is new....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7968110685&cate gory=33615 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7968110685&category=33615)

I just need a kick in the ass.....but I think these guys are the ones I will be buying from if I decide on the LS6. Can I do a Cam change on this to beef it up too without losing too much of the economy I'm keeping in mind ??

If I could get close to what Todd stated for the LS1 with this LS6, and a minor mod....I'm sold. I'll have to take my down payment for my next bike to do this....dammit.

Opinions ?? Is it better to go this route??

[This message has been edited by Aceshigh (edited April 16, 2005).]</font>

You can get a brand new crate LS1 with computer and all from SDPC for $5995!

I got a price quote on labor from the local place by me. www.ls1speed.com (http://www.ls1speed.com) and they quoted me 40-48 hours labor @ $75 per hour, but he said it should be around $2500 - $3000 for labor.....egads That's not including the costs of parts. This is going to really have to take some serious consideration.

He told me the last 2 older camaro's that had it done, that is what they were charged.

Toys aren't cheap...that's for damn sure. http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/sick/sick11.gif

[This message has been edited by Aceshigh (edited April 25, 2005).]

I am about to undertake an 81 Z LS1 swap, It is a No Brainer...
The LS1 responds well to Mods but that will come later. For now I want to
Get the swap done and get the bugs out



------------------
Mark Lenhard
70 Kentucky Gold SS/RS-L78 36,000 Mile
71 Nevada Silver Z/28 Just flipped to 48,000
81 Canadian Z/28 White with Silver Interior 24,000
Thanks Brian...
Looking for a 87 GNX