i would like to go injected on my camaro. mainly since it takes a while for the carb to warm up and thats time taken from me responding to fire calls which is what 80% of my driving is these days. right now its a 350 2bolt i belive, with 58cc heads, supposedly 194/150 valves. an edlebrock performer rpm cam and manifold and an edlebrock rpm carb. i was thinking tpi off ebay with harnesses and all but im not sure what the actual hp is and if id kill the motor if i went to rich or lean with the tpi 305 or 350 setups. ideally id like an adjustable setup since in a few years after the car is back up to par id like to go with a nice 355 build.

I would suggest putting a complete LT1 in there.

so i would need the intake, tb, fuel rail, assuming 24lb injectors, wiring harness and ecm. any way i cut it ill need an electric fuel pump. i thought i read a while back that lt1/lt4 needed special porting done to non-lt1 heads. i tried searching google since there is a nice lt1 manifold on ebay but havent come up with much. if its going to cost me around $1000 to change to efi then i might as well go with the edlebrock pro flo drop in setup for $1500 and it includes a tuner and fuel pump. the motor thats in my car isnt ready for those kind of numbers though. more info would be greatly apriciated

I was thinking that you just drop a complete LT1 engine in the car with your transmission of choice, not just the induction system. You would gain a lot with doing the full engine swap rather than just a intake swap. A complete engine can be had for somewhere around a $1000.00 if you can find one locally.

thats not doable right now. my wife is already steamed at me for smokin the clutch. the engine in the car has 1100 miles on it. not enough to constitute a whole motor swap. im looking for just an intake setup.

Well in that case the TPI setup might work for you or though the LT1 intake can be used on Gen I motors if the a hole is made in the rear of the intake for the distributor. That is a whole story in itself because the proper angle of the distributor has to be achieved by using a spacer on the intake that has a slanted cut in it. Sort of complicated to explain right now. Then the holes on the LT1 intake that bolt it to the heads need to be elongated to accept Gen I style heads.

The TPI is a dated system, not saying it's bad just LT1 and LS1 have taken over. Though ULTM8Z has a nice TPI setup on his car and he made a guide on how to do it.

http://www.nastyz28.com/2gcog/dtrest.html

Look for EFI guide.

yea i think lt1 is a bit off for me. perhaps a tpi setup for mas air flow with a lower intake for 86 and under heads is best

Well in that case the TPI setup might work for you or though the LT1 intake can be used on Gen I motors if the a hole is made in the rear of the intake for the distributor. That is a whole story in itself because the proper angle of the distributor has to be achieved by using a spacer on the intake that has a slanted cut in it. Sort of complicated to explain right now. Then the holes on the LT1 intake that bolt it to the heads need to be elongated to accept Gen I style heads.

The TPI is a dated system, not saying it's bad just LT1 and LS1 have taken over. Though ULTM8Z has a nice TPI setup on his car and he made a guide on how to do it.

http://www.nastyz28.com/2gcog/dtrest.html

Look for EFI guide.

I'm running TPI electronics, but with my Miniram, my engine is practically an LT1 (except for the opti spark).

Don't go mass air, too many headaches. www.jimsperformance.com can burn the chip, build the harness etc. He's a great guy and answered all my questions. His harness made it truly plug and play, I just added Edelbrock heads and some high flow stuff, he re-programed my chip for free. TBI is also a good option for you. It's cheaper and will actually do better at a higher RPM.

Make sure you read Ultm8z's guide. The fuel system is the only real challenging part. Depending on the year of your tank Mike's solution for the pump may or may not work. It's a good read to learn the fundamentals of the swap.

i read the guide and yea it was pretty dam good. im still draggin my feet on what i want. i know i need it cause #1 i havent touched a carb in about 7 years. #2 i need every second i can get to make my calls. if i pick up a tpi off ebay does it matter if i get a 86 and under manifold to match my heads then switch and swap runners and plenums from other years? figuring if i can get a 90ish ecm and have that jim guy do me up a harness.

I forgot the ECM number 7330 something but it's a really common unit in a lot of front wheel drive 6 cylinder cars. Jim can give you a wide range of donor cars. He can also test the ECM when does the harness and chip.

Too bad you have the early heads. I could set you up with everything but the plenum. If you can't find a good deal on the 90-92 runners shoot me a line. I have some very nice runners and a 52 mm throttle body I make a really good deal on. My spare manifold is for the later heads:(

With the 80 fuel tank you will not be able to do the pump as Ultm8z described in his guide. The sender hole on that car is too small for the third gen sender. I bought a tank from http://www.rockvalleyantiqueautoparts.com/ndex.htm . They also have a kit if you can weld. They are not cheap. They have great customer service.

With the 80 fuel tank you will not be able to do the pump as Ultm8z described in his guide. The sender hole on that car is too small for the third gen sender. I bought a tank from http://www.rockvalleyantiqueautoparts.com/ndex.htm . They also have a kit if you can weld. They are not cheap. They have great customer service.

Unfortunately Dave, you had to find that out the hard way! :whine:

I forgot the ECM number 7330 something but it's a really common unit in a lot of front wheel drive 6 cylinder cars. Jim can give you a wide range of donor cars. He can also test the ECM when does the harness and chip.


The actual number is quite longer, but the last four digits are 7730. It's the best ECM that the third gen Camaros had. I got my ECM's from 1989-1992 Chevy Corsicas.

and have that jim guy do me up a harness.

I went with Painless. It's a VERY good quality harness. Though, if you're running emissions, you'll need to get the add-ons.

Are all TPI runners the same, any type thats better....

Olav

They actually vary quite a bit...

These are basically larger tubes, but not much else:

Edelbrock
Arizona Speed and Marine
TPIS large tube
Accel large tube


SLP has almost the same as the above, but with a slight mod where they partially siamese the runners at the top for about an inch. This reduces the effective length (internally) of the runners and push the RPM band up a hair.

Arizona Speed and Marine has fully siamesed runners (I think). This will push the RPM band up quite a bit more than SLP.

my car is an 80 with a 350. pm me on what kind of deal you can setup. im sure i can find a manifold on ebay.

Are all TPI runners the same, any type thats better....

Olav

There is a difference. Some have the cold start injector, some don't I can't remember the year.

They actually vary quite a bit...

These are basically larger tubes, but not much else:

Edelbrock
Arizona Speed and Marine
TPIS large tube
Accel large tube


SLP has almost the same as the above, but with a slight mod where they partially siamese the runners at the top for about an inch. This reduces the effective length (internally) of the runners and push the RPM band up a hair.

Arizona Speed and Marine has fully siamesed runners (I think). This will push the RPM band up quite a bit more than SLP.

I'm not particularly impressed with the SLP parts. I wish I had gone with the Arizona speed pieces.

There is a difference. Some have the cold start injector, some don't I can't remember the year.

In 1990 they eliminated the cold start injector. The enrichment subroutine was rolled into the main injector bank.

Plug and play EFI pre burned chips. LOL. Thats a good one. That will give you a rough tune at best. I use a Holley Stealth ram and MAF based efi that I datalog with a WB and burn chips for.

its very easy to make the newer intake fit the old style heads. you just hog out the center mounting holes with a die grinder. a 5 minute job.

you need a stock reliable car to get to the firehouse untill you get the bugs worked out with your swap. heh.

if you look hard, you will run across good deals on used aftermarket ecu's with harness's that are far better in the long run. much easier to tune on the fly without the chip burning hassle or a bunch of add on crap to make it tunable.

there a million ways to do it, thats just my 2 cents

If your not looking for a ton of performance and want easier starts/cheaper EFI, why not look at doing a TBI setup. You can use your manifold, grab a TBI off a 454, but a $20 adapter plate, all the sensors and harness off a junkyard tbi car or truck (all 6/8 cylinder tbi cars use the same wiring harness) and have a chip burner by a number of people. It is not the best for high horsepower vehicles, but my blazer would fire up every time i turned the key no matter if it was 20 below or 100 degrees out.

just my $.02

i was thinking that myself. just wasnt so sure what systems to use or what i really needed off the car/truck to run it

if you get all the sensors off a 305/350 TBI with a harness (4.3 and 454 are the same sensors i believe) and ECU (junkyards around here charge me $100 for a whole setup) grab a TBI unit off a 454 since its bigger and have a chip burned. Only new things I would grab from the store is a delco O2 sensor ($35) and 2 new injectors ( $80/pair off ebay). The factory TPS, IAC, temp sensors (theres 2), OPS, and whatever else i'm forgetting at the moment will work fine. Very easy to install, you'll need a 12 psi fuel pump, run a main feed line from the tank, use the stock line as a return hose and sump the tank, but you'll have to do that for any fuel injection.

Plug and play EFI pre burned chips. LOL. Thats a good one. That will give you a rough tune at best. I use a Holley Stealth ram and MAF based efi that I datalog with a WB and burn chips for.


Pretty cocky talk for a guy that's never been in my car. :rolleyes: The guy that burned my chip took down all the info for the car and burned it specifically for my application. I have no doubt it could be fine tuned a little with some time, but it runs great and passed California emissions with flying colors I doubt it's as bad as you're mouthing off it is. Then again you strike me as one upper anyway.

I tune and run a WB O2, and have used "custom" chips that people have burned "for my car" and datalogged to see how they run. The computer is not a carb, it can't directly react to changes, it has to do lots of calculations and make assumptions. These assumptions are based on a very specific engine configuration. Any deviation from this configuration makes the assumptions invalid. Nobody can guess over the internet based on your cam/heads and be right. "Took down your info and burned specifically".. LOL. That is quite the oxymoron. Maybe there are enough fudge factors that it is close enough to satisfy you, a lot of the times this is not the case. I'm not too lazy to datalog and do my own chip work so I see how it is.

I tune and run a WB O2, and have used "custom" chips that people have burned "for my car" and datalogged to see how they run. The computer is not a carb, it can't directly react to changes, it has to do lots of calculations and make assumptions. These assumptions are based on a very specific engine configuration. Any deviation from this configuration makes the assumptions invalid. Nobody can guess over the internet based on your cam/heads and be right. "Took down your info and burned specifically".. LOL. That is quite the oxymoron. Maybe there are enough fudge factors that it is close enough to satisfy you, a lot of the times this is not the case. I'm not too lazy to datalog and do my own chip work so I see how it is.

So now I'm stupid and lazy? F you pal. You're talking out your ass because of some superiority complex I figure. Just because you have used guys that are not up to par don't assume I have too. My car runs fine and burns clean, tell me where the problem is. Your the only one smart enough to do the job right? Your way is the only way? Bite me.

Your F'n newbie coming in here talking crap on someone you don't know. If we have a difference in opinion fine but you have no standing to come in here and call me a liar. I have ten guys that can say my car runs well. But you come at me with no respect. Not cool.

Didn't say your car doesn't run well enough to satisfy you, I'm sure it does. Just giving straight up facts on EFI so others can make an informed decision. Jumping in head first and having someone else burn a chip is not always a rewarding experience because of all the unknown factors involved on each and every specific application. Grow up and lose the defensive 15 year old attitude. If you did your own DIY EFI stuff you would appreciate why getting an unknown "custom" chip is a last resort, instead of getting offended because you didn't. Not trying to argue. Hitting up the DIY Prom forum on thirdgen.org is a good place to learn what you need to burn your own. It is not difficult or expensive, but it does take the time commitment. It's definitely a worthwhile endeavor.

Plug and play EFI pre burned chips. LOL. Thats a good one.


You say shit like this and I'm the 15 year old?

What's you idea of a rough tune? Damn near 0 emissions, fuel trim well within parameters, smooth idle and tight throttle response? Sounds like a rough tune to me. Perhaps if you could write an differing opinion with out the condescending tone people wouldn't get upset. You act as if you are the know all end all of EFI, I have a differing opinion.

It takes a starkly different opinion to give both sides of a story sometimes. I listened to people who said one of the custom chips where you give someone your engine specs and expect them to give you a good tune without ever touching your car would be fine, once. I have dealt with a bunch of people who have done the same. Some of these guys were dealing with speed shops charging them hundreds and hundreds of dollars too, not just backyard guys with a laptop. I have met very few people who have gotten into DIY EFI who were ever satisfied with plug and play chips. Sometimes you get a magic combo and it works alright. Most of the time there's always something that could be a lot better about a tune. When you start getting into more radical engines a narrow band O2 will not even correctly read the exhaust due to cam overlap. There's no way to get the tune even close without a wideband and back calculating how to get the computer to play nice sometimes. There are a lot of good reasons to be a skeptic.

It takes a starkly different opinion to give both sides of a story sometimes. I listened to people who said one of the custom chips where you give someone your engine specs and expect them to give you a good tune without ever touching your car would be fine, once. I have dealt with a bunch of people who have done the same. Some of these guys were dealing with speed shops charging them hundreds and hundreds of dollars too, not just backyard guys with a laptop. I have met very few people who have gotten into DIY EFI who were ever satisfied with plug and play chips. Sometimes you get a magic combo and it works alright. Most of the time there's always something that could be a lot better about a tune. When you start getting into more radical engines a narrow band O2 will not even correctly read the exhaust due to cam overlap. There's no way to get the tune even close without a wideband and back calculating how to get the computer to play nice sometimes. There are a lot of good reasons to be a skeptic.

I'll send you a PM

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

I tried to rectify this crap via PM, the dude still acts like an ass. I'm done arguing.

I wasnt gonna say anything. but from what Ive seen it is hard to hit the mark with a mail order tune. Its not impossible and the milder the engine is the easier it is. Take a simple zz4 type crate motor slap the same intake on it and each instalation will run slightly different in each car because of changes in the exhaust, headers, mufflers, pipe size ect. where the inlet air comes from (temp changes) transmission, gearing. climate, fuel differences. there are a lot of variables. Can it be done , yes but its usually not gonna be the optimal tune. sometimes subtle changes can really help drivability. thats just my 2 cents.

doug

Doug, you got it. Nobody is good enough to guess over the phone at every single transient engine condition. Don't tell this other dude that! Depending on how high your standards for "perfect" are, and if your engine is mild it sure will run with some guess work tuning, but if you expect the best combination of maximum power, minimum fuel consumption, and minimum engine wear, it takes a lot more than one, or even a few, iterations of a tune to get it right.

oh boy seems like i missed something in my own thread. i know guys with plug and play and guys with diy stuff. either way works it depends on how much time you can dedicate to tuning. i could go either way on it. although i may have just scored a 396 with efi from a friend that putting the original 454 back in his chevelle so he can sell it. still i n all there are some good things to look at in this thread.

Doug stated it quite well. He didn't need to be insulting to make his point. Maybe you should study his post. ;)