It's been brought up in Howie's thread that messing with the VIN tag is a no-no, but what about cases where the cowl panel must be replaced? The VIN is original to the car and matches the hidden VIN as well as the title. Can I just document/photograph cowl panel swap and VIN tag removal/installation? Do I need special rivets?

I see you are in Houston... Call the DPS and ask them as they are the folks that deal with that kind of stuff....

There are special rivets, so you would need them, or modify standard rivets to look the same.
I second asking the state what the proper method/legality is. Maybe they have someone that could do it.

Yeah, I had a homebuilt boat trailer here in VA at one time... to get tags a state trooper came out and inspected it, handed me a VIN tag and 2 rivets. Told me to be very careful with the rivets.... to get another rivet should I screw it up, I would have to produce the damaged one and pay the fee again....

Good luck!!

I would figure out a way to leave the tag on the car and replace the metal around it.

I would figure out a way to leave the tag on the car and replace the metal around it.

Hehe, if I didn't absolutely have to replace the cowl panel, I wouldn't. The car sat without a front windshield for some time, and rusted through the cowl on both sides where it meets the A-pillar. I don't think most people would mess with a project like this, but I wanted the challenge and have the tools to fix it right.

Uh, am I just ignorant or what....but no one is going to see the rivets after you install the dash pad. If all the numbers match, what's the big deal? you have a legal car. I don't think it really matters if you use the exact same rivet?? I seriously doubt that anyone in here has ever pulled a dash off a numbers matching, legally titled car to see if it had the correct rivets. I understand your concern, but your situation is totally different than Howie's. He has 2 different VIN's on the same car. :screwup:

I didn't realize that the rivets weren't even visble with the dash pad installed - for some reason I though they'd be on either side of the tag. Just went out side and checked, and sure enough they were under the dash pad.

Uh, am I just ignorant or what....but no one is going to see the rivets after you install the dash pad. If all the numbers match, what's the big deal? you have a legal car. I don't think it really matters if you use the exact same rivet?? I seriously doubt that anyone in here has ever pulled a dash off a numbers matching, legally titled car to see if it had the correct rivets. I understand your concern, but your situation is totally different than Howie's. He has 2 different VIN's on the same car. :screwup:

yep, and actually you dont even have to rivet it back on if you dont want to. you can just place the old rivets on it and metal adhesive the plate and rivets into the new panel. seen it done and completely legal. so long as you're not changing the tag.

Are you bonded in the state to do this kind of work, i.e. in the body shop business?

If you ever sell the car and do not disclose this, the next owner could come back on you for deception.

I would figure out a way to leave the tag on the car and replace the metal around it.

Yeah, I had a homebuilt boat trailer here in VA at one time...

Are you bonded in the state to do this kind of work, i.e. in the body shop business?


C'mon guys, give him a break. He's not trying to steal his own car. All he wants to do is replace his cowl/dash panel. I can understand why the rivets would be important for the home built trailer; it has a state issued VIN with no other prior documentation. This guy has a totally legal, numbers matching, titled car. :rolleyes:

This guy has a totally legal, numbers matching, titled car. :rolleyes:And he'd like to keep it that way. Laws in states vary and he shoud check with local auto agencies. Better ask now then have something come up later.

Just your garden variety financial accountant, doing what I enjoy in my spare time.

I'm not sure I follow you - disclose what? The fact that I'm doing all the body work on my own car?

Are you bonded in the state to do this kind of work, i.e. in the body shop business?

If you ever sell the car and do not disclose this, the next owner could come back on you for deception.

Right, just check with your local DMV. I love this board because there is so much useful info here. I honestly don't know the laws of TX, but this is how this sounds to me...

I've seen all sorts of great information on this board about replacing fenders, quarters, complete suspensions, floor pans, trunk pans, hoods, trunk lids, front and rear glass, doors, engines, trannies, etc. It sounds as though the general consensus here is to say that it's ok to replace all of that from a donor car, as long as you weld it all to the original firewall and VIN plate?

In summary, again, just check with your local DMV. If doing your own body work is illegal, then 95% of us are breaking the law. In some states it's illegal to sleep in the same bed as your spouse in a motel room, or to have sex BETWEEN the beds. Some of those old laws that never got changed. Saw it on the news one night. :crazy:

Has anyone here ever heard of "tagging cars"? And I don't mean license plates... or spraypainted gang signs.

About 12 yrs ago I had opportunity to spend 10 months in Detroit... local law enforcement stopped me several times, and each time they took a quick glance at the VIN plate. This struck me as odd... so I asked.
Seems the local theft rings were pulling VIN plates and paying less reputable salvage yards for the matching title... The scam was to steal a car... replace the VIN and sell it quickly.

The cops finally caught on to the fact that the rivets were different. Chevy uses a special rivet for that plate... and if you replace the rivets they will know. Better to be provided a correct rivet and have certified paperwork, than to have your car confiscated the next time you get stopped....

This is the ONLY reason I suggested checking with the DPS is covering his hiney because it is pretty valuable if it is a numbers car.

I can understand all of this fuss over a late model car, but I doubt that there are any big theft rings dealing in 30 year old cars with titles and VIN's from a salvage yard. I know that some states don't even issue titles for cars that are over a certain age. A friend of mine bought a 69 Camaro from MA years ago, and there was no state issued title for this car beacuse it was over 20 years old. Maybe this has all changed, as he bought this car around 10 years ago. Let's face it here, if this guy is the legitimate owner of this car and has to repair the cowl area there is no harm done. If he didn't mention it here, nobody would ever know the difference. His VIN's match, and he clearly owns the car....

In Texas they do issue titles on a car that old...

Just look at the price of a numbers matching 2nd gen. Looks to be a pretty fertile hunting ground for a theif....

Either way, if he gets advice from the authorities there and follows it to the letter... he is golden. Beats taking a chance in my book...

Just look at the price of a numbers matching 2nd gen. Looks to be a pretty fertile hunting ground for a theif....



If someone snags a numbers matchng car and retags it,kinda defeats the numbers matching eh?

For comparison, here's the law in PA-see section (c): "§ 7102. Removal or falsification of identification number.
(a) Offense defined.--A person who willfully places a false identification number on or removes, sells or falsifies an existing identification number of a vehicle, engine, transmission or any other vehicle part bearing an identification number is guilty of a misdemeanor of the third degree.

(b) Fraudulent intent.--A person who willfully and with intent to conceal or misrepresent the identity of a vehicle, engine, transmission or any other vehicle part bearing an identification number, places a false identification number thereon or removes, sells or falsifies an existing identification number thereof, is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree.

(c) Exception.--This section does not apply to the removal of a metal vehicle identification number plate from a vehicle for which a certificate of salvage has been obtained in accordance with section 1117 (relating to vehicle destroyed, dismantled, salvaged or recycled). Neither does this section prohibit the removal of a metal vehicle identification number plate from a vehicle part that is damaged when such removal is necessary for proper repair or matching identification of a replacement vehicle part, but such removal is only allowed if the proper matching metal vehicle identification number plate is immediately and properly secured to the repaired or replacement part."

THE KEY WORD here is PROPELY secured. If reattached with screws vs. rivets, for ex., a law enforcement officer would lift the car on the spot. Factory rivets came from under the dash up, and the squeezed part of the rivet that is exposed on the top of the dash looks like an ordinary rivet. You will have to use rivets. Check with your state's DMV. PA's law as stated above is vague I feel.

Just checked with the local DMV office in NC. Told him i was doing a restore and wanted to remove the VIN tag while I stripped and painted the dash (which is true). he said no prob, just be sure to be careful when I'm doing it. I said ok :p

I can understand all of this fuss over a late model car, but I doubt that there are any big theft rings dealing in 30 year old cars with titles and VIN's from a salvage yard.....Fraud in the collector car business is pretty high...

Factory rivets came from under the dash up, and the squeezed part of the rivet that is exposed on the top of the dash looks like an ordinary rivet.

I agree, every rivet I've ever seen was installed from under the dash up. My assembly manual says that the direction of the rivet is optional http://77rs.homestead.com/dunno.gif

If someone snags a numbers matchng car and retags it,kinda defeats the numbers matching eh?
Unless it is only temporarily changed to facilitate shipment overseas... then the original put back on at the other end. That method allows a stolen numbers car to leave the country with little special effort and still retain it's collectable value on the other end. Crooks can be pretty crafty folks.... and the Japs pay a fortune for American collectables.

Just one scenario, I'm sure there are many more....;)

Fraud in the collector car business is pretty high...
Yes it is, but that is not the issue in question here. All this guy wants to do is remove his VIN tag in order to do some repair work. He is not altering the numbers on his car in any way at all. As we all know, there are very few 30+ year old cars still sitting around in salvage yards today. Most, if not all of the fraud being committed today in the collector car market is being done with bogus paperwork as well as block restamping and those wonderfull repro Trim Tags.;)

Yes it is, but that is not the issue in question here. All this guy wants to do is remove his VIN tag in order to do some repair work. He is not altering the numbers on his car in any way at all. As we all know, there are very few 30+ year old cars still sitting around in salvage yards today. Most, if not all of the fraud being committed today in the collector car market is being done with bogus paperwork as well as block restamping and those wonderfull repro Trim Tags.;)I understand his situation, but you indicated you didn't think it was as big a deal with old cars, and I disagree. I bet %%wise, there are more mistagged/represented old cars then newer ones.

And because of that, people are looking closer, and I don't want to see this guy screwed down the road for an honest fix now. That's all.

There was a story in paper several years back about a couple of guys in the Detroit area nabbed for possessing VIN rivets. Its illegal to possess or sell them. So don't get caught in some FBI sting trying to buy them. Every now and then, some show up on ebay and thats were these jailbirds were selling them. They are spending time in a Michigan prison.

I am told by a friend who worked in a Chevy body shop that for them to replace a damaged part of a car where the VIN (in Michigan) has to be removed involves the police, the insurance company and the GM zone office whom supplies the special roset rivets. The VIN then has to be installed on the new parts under the supervision of the cops and or insurance adjuster (as witnesses) to make it legal. If the dealer somehow does not follow procedure, they open themselves up to liability because they did not follow the law irregardless of how honest they were at the time.

There was a story in paper several years back about a couple of guys in the Detroit area nabbed for possessing VIN rivets. Its illegal to possess or sell them. So don't get caught in some FBI sting trying to buy them. Every now and then, some show up on ebay and thats were these jailbirds were selling them. They are spending time in a Michigan prison.

Thanks for the post!
I was beginning to think no one else recalled the origins my Detroit "tagged cars" post. I am glad you spoke-up... was beginning to think I was losing my mind:screwup:.. LOL!

About a year ago, a guy from N.or S. Carolina was selling these rivets for $45 a pair. The site was www.67-72 chevy trucks.com or something close to that. I seen him deal with at least 30 guys. Not a word was said and it must have been legal or the Moderators would have stopped it..I think some of you guys are getting carried away. This fella on this site is no thief. He just needs to do some bodywork..I do remember someone showed how he did his. Glue on star heads. Just never touched the tag when he removed it. Good Luck..

I understand his situation, but you indicated you didn't think it was as big a deal with old cars, and I disagree. I bet %%wise, there are more mistagged/represented old cars then newer ones.

And because of that, people are looking closer, and I don't want to see this guy screwed down the road for an honest fix now. That's all.
As I posted above, the VIN's of these bogus cars are not the root of the problem. Until 1972 the VIN meant nothing when it came to decoding an SS or Z28. The only thing that a Camaro VIN would tell you was if a car came with a 6 or 8 Cyl. engine. I have seen MANY fake Z28's and SS that had everything fake on them except for the VIN. You can buy fake documentation, repro Trim Tags, floor mounted gas pedal parts, engine restamping kits, and so on. Just about all of these items can be found in Hemmings or on Ebay, and all of them are 100% legal to buy and sell. If anyone really wants to put an end to collector car fraud, this is the stuff that they should focus on. You can get fake papework to support any VIN that you want, so swapping a VIN in not a requirement to make a bogus car.

What's really bad is that our new member EDDIEP has silently left the thread. I guess the bickering amongst ourselves has left him with no solution to his problem. Sorry Eddie. Good Luck! Do what you gotta do.

I'm outa here as well!

fyi

http://www.synthetic-oil.com/images/vin_rivets.jpg

It's been brought up in Howie's thread that messing with the VIN tag is a no-no, but what about cases where the cowl panel must be replaced? The VIN is original to the car and matches the hidden VIN as well as the title. Can I just document/photograph cowl panel swap and VIN tag removal/installation? Do I need special rivets?

I don't understand why you are advertising that you are planning to swap the VIN or how to do it. If the dash panel is so badly rusted you need to replace it, close the garage door and get to work. I am sure there are 1000's of cars that had to get the dash panel replaced due to rust repair and I don't think it is necessary to advertise how to do it.
Swapping VINs from one car to another is highly illegal, but if you are putting it back on the original vehicle it came from, I don't see the big deal.

You hit the rivet on the head STITCH626..That is exactly what you do..Close the shop doors and fix your problem area..

I changed the cowl on mine not to long ago. Even if you were to get questioned on it. It isnt hard to prove that the vin matches the car. There are 2 hidden vins on the firewall.

I'll have to do mine soon.

Guess I'll just document it all with pictures and whatnots....

Here is another Camaro that has been doctored by someone and sold. Dont' get all bent out of shape for me pointing out all the pitfalls of tampering with VIN plates and so.



Read about it here. (http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=100669)

PLEASE !!!!! Anyone considering purchasing ANY CAR MORE than 20 years old, know where the hidden VINs are and see it in person !!! Don't forget the mirror....look at the rivets and stampings from behind !!! I got fooled and screwed....you can too.

LOL!! you guys kill me. Swap the panel, drill out the damn rivets, then put the VIN tag back on. :confused:

I agree with SCURRY. Just replace the thing back to it's original condition and enjoy! I went through this headache with a totalled ford truck. It had the sticker on the cab that couldn't be removed without tearing it off and the sticker actually said "void". Had to get the truck re-asigned a new id number and titled as a home made vehicle! That's the way Indiana makes you do it.