i just pulled my cam out and found that cylinders 4,6,8 have one lobe wore off and the lifter is cupped. what would cuase this? i know i have at least 10 dampners broke, and it looks like a piece got into a spring. the machine shop blames it on the wrong oil and that the dampner would not do that.
thanks
mike

Incorrect cam break in and/or a poor choice in oil will cause the cam failure. Broken dampers can be a result of binding or overworking.

Anything solid getting jambed into the valvespring coils will cause undue pressure on the cam lobe because the spring can't compress properly.

Why are the dampners breaking?

Man I had 8 dampners break and 2 lobes of a cam back in the summer. Had the right springs. No coil bind, had the folks at Doug Herbert parts on the phone for hours, took measurements and everything. Never got a real answer as to why they broke. They replaced the springs for me, I had already bought the new cam and then found the springs. It jacked my seals up too.

I went from a fresh rebuild with 300 miles and had to break it down to the heads. I put new studs, seals, springs in while I had the heads off.

I'd say call the place you got them if there new.

Coil Bind! Retainer to Seal issue! or both!!!

Do not trust people Check valve train setup yourself.

we checked the coil bind before we put the motor together and it had the correct space between coils. when the cam was broke in over a year ago we had no problems what so ever. i last adjusted the rockers back in late september and everything was good. i did not have the cam wear down problem until about 2 weeks ago, i noticed a rockers loose. i did not drive the car since it is winter break and decided to change oil. then i found the dampner piece in the oil pan. i then pulled the valve covers off and found more pieces.

i now have the heads sitting at the original machine shop( use a different one now) i had at least 8 dampners broke and one peice for sure was getting lodged in a coil. he claims the cam wore down because of the oil, but it was broke in fine and did not wear down untilabout 2 weeks ago. I have 3 lobes wore, one it gone, the 2nd one is about gone, and the third is just starting.

if they were wearing during breakdown, don't you think they would be completely wore after over 2000 miles and 1.5 years old????

i will be calling him tomorrow and seeing what he found with the springs. if try to charge me for looking at them, i will probably go ballistic, we have had so many problems with him that we now go to a new machinist, but i am only dealing with him since he originally put the heads together.


ALSO, he claims a dampner peice in between the spring coils could not wear a cam

What was the last oil you used before things went bad??

pennzoil 10w-40, i have always used that. the only difference was when i broke the cam in, i used isky rev lube all over the engine and it was mixed in pretty heavy in the oil, so the cam broke it correctly.

i talked with comp cams and they said once the cam is broke in, the oil does not matter. it is only crucial to have the zinc and phospurus (sp?) when you break it in.

i think i will be going to a mechanical roller, since i have to buy something and i would not have to worry about it anymore.

pennzoil 10w-40, i have always used that. the only difference was when i broke the cam in, i used isky rev lube all over the engine and it was mixed in pretty heavy in the oil, so the cam broke it correctly.

i talked with comp cams and they said once the cam is broke in, the oil does not matter. it is only crucial to have the zinc and phospurus (sp?) when you break it in.

i think i will be going to a mechanical roller, since i have to buy something and i would not have to worry about it anymore.

Yep that oil is not really made for flat tapet cams as the zinc and phosephate have been lowered and is probably is the cause for the cam and lifter failuar and check to see if the cam was a P-55 core which is a performance core and is harder then most cam cores out there and if its was hydraulic lifter we have always used the ones from GM P/N 5232720 which have the hardest bottoms out there as we have had zero problems so far and we have been using the 15/40 Rotella T or the Brad Penn 20/50 racing oil which is the old green Kendall oil.

I never use pennzoil, I was told it had parifin wax in it, and that it can/will clog ports and galleys......
don't know if this is true, just don't risk it...
Chris

do you think it was the oil or the dampner getting stuck in between coils that ground the cam? comp cams says the oil will only wear the cam during breakdown. the cam was great for over 15 months and then as soon as dampners starting breaking the cam wore down. the dampner broke peices even have marks where they were wedged into the spring.

i think i will be going to a mechanical roller, since i have to buy something and i would not have to worry about it anymore.

Until you lose a roller lifter or break springs, etc. There is no cherry setup any more. Yes the most critical time is during the break in but when using higher than stock spring pressures and performance cams the interference pressure is still critical. If I ever go back to that setup I will stick with the Rotella oil full time and EOS during the first oil change.

i am getting new pro 1 heads that will be set up for the roller cam with comp cam springs, recommended for that cam. i will still use rotella since our diesels use that.

i talked with comp cams and they said once the cam is broke in, the oil does not matter. it is only crucial to have the zinc and phospurus (sp?) when you break it in. I'd have to disagree with CC. No oil can adequately lube the extreme pressure contact point between the lifter foot and the cam lobe. You need an extreme pressure lube like ZDDP (zinc). Maybe this is why so many comp cams experience lobe failure.

Additives like this have been removed from oil to protect emissions equipment. So you have to add some. You could use diesel oil in the past, but it's losing it's zinc too in the latest rating. I like to use a quality oil with bottle of CD-2 Street Legal Oil Boost. It's loaded with zinc, I get it from Big Lots for 2 bucks a bottle. Cheap insurance.

There's a whole article on cam break-in and the ZDDP oil controversy in the new Feb'07 CAR CRAFT. I also found this interesting post on line

http://forums.noria.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/616604995/m/3011052071

Mike, A couple weeks back when you started haveing problems, didn't you say you had about .650 lift and a single spring w/dampner? You said something along that line that caught my eye. I was thinking a +.050 lock to get the installed height. I might be wrong..PM me if you need something. Where did you buy your Pro-1's? S.C.P.? Talk to Steve..He'll treat you right. My sweet deal at EPW went south..

it is a .495 lift cam with 1.52 rockers. the heads are 441 heads.

my new machine shop checked a spring before i took them to the old machine shop to show them the problem.

the springs were 98 pressure and could handle 550 lift.


i am now going with a new machine shop with pro 1 heads and a roller cam. the pro 1's are already ordered and i am getting them at a good price.

I'm trying to find the oil analysis for the Penz 10-40 and can't locate it. I do know that the 15/40 Penz IS HIGHER in Zinc and Phosph than Shell Rotell. The low weight gas saving oil blends are what got whacked on antiwear additives, not the higher viscosity lines.

Penzoil will not clog anything in your engine.

Clean your mailbox..

jsut did. thanks

i will probably start using the oil we use in our diesel trucks, since it still has the zinc and stuff. i am going with a roller cam, so i do not really have to, but i still will until they take the zinc out of the diesel oils, which they are supposed to do this year.

You didn't read my post? There is no magic with a "diesel oil". Although Shell Rotell is great, just put it in my pickup when I changed the oil this weekend, the NON energy savings oils have not been changed. So just about ANY 10/40 to 15/40 or 20/50 oil is going to be what's called SL spec with much higer zinc levels, in the 1200 to 1300 PPM range versus the 600 to 700 for the new SM ratings. If you REALLY want to do your valvetrain a favor then pay the extra for a true racing oil like Scheaffers or Royal Purple.

If you want to go inexpensive and have an oil with an add package better than the Shell go with Chevron Delo 400 15/40.

Just trying to give you a few options on this so it doesn't tie you in a knot with the "diesel downgrade deal".

There are LOTS of oils out there that will work just dandy for all our applications for many many years to come. It's the energy saving SM rated oils that don't work the best.

sorry, i misread it. so would the 10w 40 pennzoil i run have higher zinc levels.

also, is their anyway to prove if the cam went down because of oil or a piece of the dampner sticking is the coils and causing a bind? color, surface features, texture?????????

So just about ANY 10/40 to 15/40 or 20/50 oil is going to be what's called SL spec with much higer zinc levels, in the 1200 to 1300 PPM range versus the 600 to 700 for the new SM ratings.

Where did you get that info? In the CAR CRAFT article I read they listed zinc levels as follows

1996..... SH ...... 1300 ppm
2001..... SJ ...... 1100 ppm
2005..... SM ...... 870 ppm
2006..... Rotella...... 1400 ppm

They don't show an SL rating but I would think it's somewhere between SJ and SM. I'm going to do some more searching.

My sense is yes, somewhere in the 1200 to 1300 range as that's about where the 15/40 is. They are BOTH rated as SL oils which means they "don't" meet the specs for new cars.

I tried to find a virgin oil analysis for the 10/40 but could not. It's a guess on my part but my confidence is pretty high.

Your basic assumption on the camshaft failure is correct in my mind. If it was going to fail due to the oil it would have done it RIGHT AWAY, within the first half hour. It's impossible for anyone on the net to know exactly what happened between break in and now unless they just guessed lucky. My sense is it was some kind of valvetrain issue such as a bad spring(s), valve float, piece broke and it cascaded on top of itself, something like that.

It is very, very hard to define exactly what happens in a failure like this without being the one that disassemble the motor piece by piece and haveing accurate information on the engine operation and maintenance leading up to the failure.

It's hard to blame an oil in this situation since the odd side of the motor seemed to like it just fine and the even side didn't.

the motor ran great for over 14 months and 2000 miles. i adjusted the rockers just this september and they were in good shape.

the initial adjustment was when i first assembled the engine on the stand. after break in for 30 min and a few miles, i adjusted them again, and theyr were no more than a few thousands out, not the 1/4 the lobe is out. the reason i think they broke in well is i used isky rev lube on everything and i think that mixed with the oil.

i will go the machine tomorrow and see what he found out about the springs and argue about the cam. i had a cam go done before, but that was within the first 20 min.

I found a site that quotes the rating in 2004 for API SL as 1100 ppm for zinc from a Hot Rod magazine article Jun '06.

http://www.mail-archive.com/oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca/msg08266.html

how many ppm do you need for a solid lifter cam with about .500 lifter AFTER break in is complete?

Blackstone labs, who we use to do oil analysis work for us.

Anything in the 1200 to 1300 PPM range is fine.

There is no reason an older oil, pre SM can't exceed the standards for antiwear, dispersant and detergent additives.

Rick, I'm totally confused. After reading your posts I'm thinking I'll just switch to 10W-40 Pennzoil SL and be done with it; then I read this on a site:

"Always use a multi grade with the narrowest span of viscosity that is appropriate for the temperatures you are going to encounter. The polymers can shear and burn forming deposits that can cause ring sticking and other problems. 10W-40 and 5W-30 require a lot of polymers(synthetics excluded) to achieve that range. This has caused problems in diesel engines, but fewer polymers are better for all engines. The wide viscosity range oils, in general, are more prone to viscosity and thermal breakdown due to the high polymer content. It is the oil that lubricates, not the additives. Oils that can do their job with the fewest additives are the best.

Very few manufacturers recommend 10W-40 any more, and some threaten to void warranties if it is used. It was not included in this article for that reason. 20W-50 is the same 30 point spread, but because it starts with a heavier base it requires less viscosity index improvers (polymers) to do the job."

http://www.micapeak.com/info/oiled.html

It also lists contents for different brands of oil but they're from 1991 and obsolete. I'm used to good old 10W-30 Pennzoil (been using it for over 30 years), new 350 with mild Crane hydraulic cam (.427/.454 lift). :confused:

In case anyone is interested, today I called the Pennzoil tech line and spoke to two different tech reps who sounded extremely knowledgeable about the subject. BTW it's actually the Shell tech line because Shell owns Pennzoil, Quakerstate and who knows what else.

These guys told me the SL zinc/phosphate content in 10W-40 SL rated Pennzoil is the same as the SM rating which is 870 ppm. They recommended going to a diesel rating of CI-4 which has a zinc content of 1400 ppm and is still on the shelves. In 2007 they will be switching to CJ-4 which has 1200 ppm zinc. I went with Pennzoil Long Life 15W-40 diesel oil CI-4 and it was 50 cents cheaper than regular 10W-40.

FWIW when I did my blackstone analysis last summer with Penz. 10/30 the oil came back with 681 PPM zinc. I thought that was crazy low for a car running flat taps and .507" lift, especially after reading some of the above quoted articles. I switched to Mobil Delvac 15/40 diesel.

In any case my oil analysis did not come back with high iron content so it appears the oil was protecting the cam OK. I seems to me I read somewhere that the ZDDP is "used up" as it protects extreme contact points? If that is the case then perhaps it was my short oil change intervals that kept me safe.

In any case I'm sure there are thousands upon thousands of old flat tappets running these new oils without failure....but for my money I would rather be safe than sorry.

I seems to me I read somewhere that the ZDDP is "used up" as it protects extreme contact points? If that is the case then perhaps it was my short oil change intervals that kept me safe.

In any case I'm sure there are thousands upon thousands of old flat tappets running these new oils without failure....but for my money I would rather be safe than sorry.


I hear you. The tech I spoke with was explaining to me how the contact point of lobe and lifter gets so hot (especially at high revs) that it's almost like a "spot weld". The ZDDP protects the metal and cools it but the heat "uses up" the phosphorus so the more frequent the oil changes, the better and ,for my money, the more ZDDP the better.