Let me start by saying this motor is supposed to be stock bore and stroke. I bought this built motor and have all the paperwork saying it is just that. It is also supposed to have Speed Pro pistons.

I began cleaning the pistons and find they are TRW pistons . But the next numbers are the ones that really concern me. They are 030. So, no wonder it ran so good, a 355 or 383, am I right? Since I have the paperwork, isn't that misrepresentation? Before I call the builder I am gathering information. I also want to check on the rods. Are they 400 or 350 rods. How can I tell as these have no part numbers on them. Where do I measure them from and to? This motor has about 3 or 4 thousand miles on it and the cam lost a lobe. So that is not their fault, nor would the motor's failure, but if I 'purchased' a 350, but find it to be something else, then they are at fault for that, right?

If the pistons are stamped 030 or just 30 on the face or other obvious location in fairly big numbers it's almost for sure they are 30-over pistons and, therefore, the block has been punched 30-over, too.

Rods.... I couldn't tell you how to tell the 5.565" vs. 5.7" rods apart by description but I just know when I see them which they are. They are measured from the center of the big end to the center of the small end.

Break out a bore mic and see what the bore is at. If it is more than "standard" as your paperwork says, take it back and get a partial or full refund. You have it in writing. The 5.565" rods have shorter rod bolt compared to the 5.7" rods.

5.565" rods:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33623&item=7947578252&rd=1

5.7" rods:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33623&item=7947032530&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Wouldnt be that bad if it was a 383 instead would it http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

This is a little crude but will work for measuring stroke-this will tell you if its a 355 or 383. Place any piston at TDC and mark it with a Sharpie on the the cylinder wall if the piston is "down in the hole." If its been zero decked it will be flush with the top of the block. Rotate the piston to BDC and measure the distance-3.48" is 355, 3.75" is a 383.

I'd verify everything before confronting the builder, it could get ugly if your not 100% sure he scammed you. A properly rebuilt 350 would need to be bored to be rebuilt.

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11.74@118mph in full street trim, driven to the track every time! Trailers are for boats..

Also, Speed Pro & TRW are the same company.

2x4, the motor is already disassembled. I know Speed Pro and TRW are both owned by Federal Mogul, but from what I remember, Speed Pros have their insignia on the skirt, these do not. All they have is TRW and their part number, followed by 030 on the top of the piston. Yeh I know finding an old block in cherry shape is kind of rare, but they are out there. And they tried to talk me into a 355 or 383, but I point blank told them I did not want a bored 350, but I wanted a stock bore and stroke 350, and they said that would be no problem. So I guess, since I do not have any accurate way of measuring the bore or the rods, I will load them up and take them to Andy, my machine shop guy. Man with money being tight, like I really needed this too!

Post the casting numbers of the crank, I got a book of them that might help if you want(?). It would be easy to find out what it is by the piston P/N, but I see your point-its .030 over and you specified std bore.

I see nothing wrong with a .030 block, but when you got documentation of one thing and its a flat out lie..well..Kind of makes ya pissed when you think this guys thinking you'd never find out http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/confused.gif Call him & rip him a fresh one!

Does the block need to be clearenced if it is a 383?

Whats so bad about a .030" over 350 block.

There's millions of .030" over engines on the road. Heck every 383 stroker has to be, unless its an aftermarket block

I ran may 30, 40 and 60 over 350's and 327's. It aint gonna hurt a thing.

To get a 4.000" bore you will have to by a new block. Plane a simple. No rebuild done RIGHT can be stock bore. You'll need atleast a hone job on older blocks, which will make it alittle bigger, but still use stock pistons, and IMO I much rather have a .030 block with the right size pistons and rings than a honed 4.002" block with loose fitting stock pistons.

TRW and speed pro is the same, no if's and's or but's to it.

Federal Mogul made TRW pistons before they made speed pro. They dropped the name "TRW" and went to a new name on there pistons. New name is "speed pro"

The builder did lie to you though on the bore. If the pistons are marked "030" then they are for a .030" over bore

And you case of sold as a 350, got not a 350 can go two ways..

Look up the block's casting number, and sufix.. What does it say. If it says it's a 350, and you measure the stroke and it's 3.48... Then well you got a 350

A rebuilt 350 is still a 350.

On the other hand he told you it was a 4.000" bore and you got a 4.030" bore

I believe when you call a motor a 350, it tells you the cubic inches as we know it. If it is bored over the 4", then the cubes are more and it is no longer a 350. And I did state to him "stock bore and stroke 350" in those words. If he had said that he couldn't do that, then that would have been dealt whichever way I had decided to go, either buy it or not. But he said it would be no problem. That is the point here. I know there are tons of overbored sbc's out there, but our agreement was not for an overbored 350. Say what you mean and mean what you say. Don't tell me one thing then do another, not if I am paying the tab, thank you. The statute of limitations is 4 years and I am within that. A friend of mine is a builder and installed a customer supplied used crank which the customer had checked by a machine shop. The crank, if you can believe this, broke in two after being driven for a summer. The owner took the builder to court and sued him, and even though the builder had witnesses, receipts to verify everything he claimed, the plaintif won and got all his money back along with paying for attorney fees, and could have been re paid double that if the judge had ordered.

So the law is pretty clear on that, and this is misrepresentation, plain and simple.
I do not want his business or anything, I just want what I ordered and paid for, according to the receipts and paperwork.

I have come to find that "350" is used rather loosely in most conversations when describing a 350 small block that may have been 350cid at some point.

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John Wright



[This message has been edited by John Wright (edited January 14, 2005).]

I think ZToy is correct here. If the paperwork explicitly states "standard bore" then he has cause for action. I sure wouldn't stand for this thing not being what I was told that it is if it was not. What if he has .30" pistons already? There is no guarantee that the block will clean up with a hone, and he has to get larger pistons in that case. It definitely looks to be a case of misrepresentation to me, and I think this is the whole point he was making.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by 73454:
I think ZToy is correct here. If the paperwork explicitly states "standard bore" then he has cause for action. I sure wouldn't stand for this thing not being what I was told that it is if it was not. What if he has .30" pistons already? There is no guarantee that the block will clean up with a hone, and he has to get larger pistons in that case. It definitely looks to be a case of misrepresentation to me, and I think this is the whole point he was making.</font>

Agreed.

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John Wright

You can buy a brand new 4" bore 4bolt block from GM for around $480, BUT your better off with a seasoned block that has been honed true and round after everything settles down. If you specified a 4.000" bore, you should have got it, but I wouldn't be the least bit 'worried' about it being +0.030,,, you still have +0.040 and +0.060 to go before the block is used up.

"your better off with a seasoned block"-Marv Davis

Yes thats what I understand.

" I wouldn't be the least bit 'worried' about it being +0.030,,, you still have +0.040 and +0.060 to go before the block is used up."

I guess I was thinking, from memory, that one of the older blocks were only good for boring up to .060 before overheating became a problem. Guess not. But its not like I don't think the block being bored is a problem. It is measuring good at .030. Heck you can still see the crosshatching in the cylinders.

Question- When they linebore the block, will they match the block main journal sizing to match the crank main journal size so I can use std, bearings? It had .020 bearings in it already. I know they are going to have to turn the crank a tiny bit as I could feel unevenness ( is there even such a word? lol) on one crank main journal, but only just enough of a groove to tell its not smooth. What Andy told me at the machine shop was that the middle main journals on the block measured smaller (one of these was the spun bearing, the other was gathering metal in the oil groove) than the remaining journals. He says he honestly thinks those two bearings were not clearanced properly when assembled causing undue heating and may have contributed to the failure. He said it wasn't just where the crank may have flexed, but the entire journal opening was smaller. Actually the other journals all measured good for .020 over. Weird, eh? This is causing me to have everything re checked. Money is very tight and I had enough to get to the point of re assembly up to installation of the cam (have to save for that) but having to do extra machining is going to maybe keep it off the road this next summer too. I wish I could get the builder to admit that I didn't get what I ordered and maybe, (I know this is a stretch, heck just getting them to do anything is probably going to be like pulling eye teeth...lol) have them give up a good forged 400 crank and rod setup. I know, thats dreaming...but I am not sure whats fair, fair to me as well as to them. Looks like a pissing contest to me, and pissing to Mass. from Mich. is a bit of a stretch if you ask me. But nothing ventured, nothing gained as I always say.

[This message has been edited by Ztoy (edited January 15, 2005).]

Ouch, the .020 crank is bad news. Thats my absolute limit to go on a crank. I'm sure you can go more and people have, but thats a hefty amount. Unless it had a major scratch/scoring before, its been turned twice. That means many miles times two http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

(IMO)I'm not a fan of lineboring blocks, a ton of people have it done when its not needed. If there has been a spun main bearing, main studs are installed or the caps have been mixed up/replaced, then do it.

What they do is basically bolt the main caps on & run a hone through where the crank would go. All that does is "true" up the saddles. They cant match it to your crank, they just make it round.

Your in a tough situation right now. Can you hash out something with the original seller before spending any more money? The way I see it, you need a lot of machine work in addition to a different crank before this engine is running. If your still insistant on a std bore block then your in a lot worse situation http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

Where are you located? I can hook you up with honest machine shops in the Kalamazoo area. Theres only one place I go to (Street & Strip) and hes moving the shop right now, but hes worth a look. A little more expensive than everyone else, but youll never have a problem & he'll tell you the truth (good or bad!).

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11.74@118mph in full street trim, driven to the track every time! Trailers are for boats..

2x4, I live right by the Te-khi in Battle Creek, right off I-94. Every heard of Andy Warner? He used to run the machine shop at Battle Creek Motor Shop. He now owns his own shop in Bedford, A&R Mach. Shop. The guy who is supposed to be 'the' chevy man around here now and who does the lineboring and balancing is Tom Straley from Hastings. An acquaintance of mine is Mike Doubleday. Maybe you have heard of him. He is a highly respected motor guy who many local hotrodders have do engine work for. Although he primarily is a Mopar guy, he does them all. These are the guys who are giving me lots of advice and services, but I also am getting as much info I can from you guys here because there is tons of great info to be learned from so many other hotrodders who have been there, done that.

I was told that when they linebore it, they cut down the height of the main caps just enough to then bore the journals out to bring them back to specs. The thing I see as a problem would be keeping the centerline of the crank constant so as not to change the stroke among other things. So maybe I am misunderstanding..

Cool. I"m in Battle Creek all the time-my daughter lives right by Helmer/I-94. Gotta love the Taco Bell on Columbia on saturday nights!
Sounds like you already found some good shops to help out (Mike Doubleday sounds familiar but I dont know where from). I'd listen to them, they deal with these things all day & theres nothing they havent seen. They want to do good work & have you spread the word about them http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif granted, you always end up spending more than you planned, but its worth it!

My son lives right around there too, on Perry Rd. Oh yeh, good ol Taco Bell, spent many a Sat evening there...not so much last summer tho, the weather sucked most of the time. I live 1 mile off 94 at the 104 exit (11 Mile Rd.). Am on I Dr. N., only rd going west off 11 mile between 94 and Verona Rd.

If your ever over this way, stop by, coffee is always brewing...lol

[This message has been edited by Ztoy (edited January 15, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Ztoy (edited January 17, 2005).]

Ok, so I have a 355. Is there a way, like buying an aftermarket crank, so that I can re-use my stock rods and pistons and make this a 383 without extensive machining? I see Eagle makes some cranks which look like they might work.

I like the Eagle stuff a lot-especially if your on a budget. They have complete rotating assemblies starting at $800, and they are complete kits (balancer/flexplate included). Most other kits do not.

I think if you use a 400 (3.75") stroke crank with the stock length 400 rods (5.565") and 400 pistons it all fits right, but your running a really short rod. The longer the rod the better, so using the short 400 rod is shooting yourself in the foot. Thats why most people go with the 5.7 rod and "regular" 383 pistons on a reground 400 (3.75") crank or any aftermarket 383ci crank. Does that sound as confusing as it looks??

I'm pulling the rods & pistons on my 383 right now & replacing them with 6" rods & forged pistons, so I may have the old 5.7 rods & .030 383 Speed Pro pistons for sale soon if you really want a 383(FYI). The blocks ready to pull, I just been waiting to buy a new cherry picker http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

If I were you I would not do the 383. You stated your on a budget, and just refreshening the 355 is going to be very cheap-completely switching to a 383 wont be. There's other things involved in doing the 383 that wont be issues with the 355 (clearancing the block, small base circle cams, external balancing, ect.)

I was keeping up until you talked about the clearance issues with the 383.

OK, the block has to be clearanced for the swing of the longer stroke using the Eagle 383 crank, 383 pistons, and the 5.7 rods, right?

What about the smallbase circle cam? Does that mean machining of the heads to allow a greater rocker ratio?

With the external balancing of the 400 I will need to come up with a 400 balancer as well as a 400 flywheel too, then have it balanced together.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Ztoy:
OK, the block has to be clearanced for the swing of the longer stroke using the Eagle 383 crank, 383 pistons, and the 5.7 rods, right?

Yes. GrapeApe (a member here) has a killer website that was the most helpful to me. I cheated & had the machine shop "rough" it in for me, then I did any final clearancing. Then I just hit a couple spots with a die grinder during the test assembly. Its not really a big deal, you just have to be careful & measure a lot.

What about the smallbase circle cam? Does that mean machining of the heads to allow a greater rocker ratio?

Most people need them when using GM type rods. When using I-beams you may not need the small base cam, but you have to check to know for sure. Rods can be clearanced (ground down by the rod bolt area) but its not a gaurentee. Mine are clearanced-the first cam I used fit fine so I thought I was fine. Then I swapped to another cam & it hit everywhere & had to go with a small base cam. Small base cam means the core part of the cam is thinner & the heel of the lobe is a lot shorter- the heel of the lobe is what hits the pistons. Right now I'm running a custom solid Isky cam from Speed Merchant, but Lowend says all Isky cams have the small base circle (FYI).

With the external balancing of the 400 I will need to come up with a 400 balancer as well as a 400 flywheel too, then have it balanced together.
Yup.
</font>

Search the board for 383 buildups & see what you can find, theres a lot of good info on them here. The basic trouble spots are are the same though.

thanks for the help http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif