No,, methanol you bozos! <sheeeeeze>
The change to methanol did not treat me well. I turned my 10.50 car into an 11 second freeking slug! The car will not launch from idle, not at all. At the jab of the throttle she goes flat. I have the utmost faith in Patricks expertise but I think this carb has serious problems. Have to get the rpm's up to 3000-3500 in the staging beams to get to WFO on the tree. She launches and just as the skinnies come off the ground it falls FLAT on it's face. I mean bounce my nose off the windshield flat! Why he didn't set this thing up with rear jet extensions I have no idea, but I'm sure I'm uncovering the rear jets is part of the problem. I'm a little confussed. Patrick put this carb together from a 80556 Dominator body, tweeked the metering blocks, air bleeds, wet flowed it and put 6.5 power valves and 160 jets both front and back. Powervalves both front and rear???,, on a race only motor?? Is this SOP for an alky carb?

My big problem is our first team race is in mid January and I don't have the luxury of track time to sort this crap out.



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Order your 2GCOG calendar quick (http://www.nastyz28.com/2gcog/calendar.html)

I switched to alcohol a while back and I also fell flat on my face. I'll stick with straight iced tea...

Did you try raising the float level, esp. the secondary bowl?
What are you running for a fuel system, alky needs overkill in voluum.
Also, any possibility you have a blocked passage or loose bowl screws causing an internal leak?
I would be investing in a pyro, but it sounds like you have accellerator pump issues as well. .037 or larger shooters with the high flow screws?

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Not so rusty any more!

A fuel system from HELL rust. Float levels were right and just put a Mallory 250 alky pump on along with their hi-flo alky regulator. Have OK fuel pressure the entire pass. In fact I had problems getting pressure DOWN. That pump moves so much fuel I couldn't get pressure under 13psi without returning both at the pump AND the regulator. She now sits at 8.5psi at idle and nothing less than 4psi that I saw. Honestly I don't have a clue what the psi was at launch. I was so concerned with what was going to happen with the level launch that I didn't notice the guage. Then when she dropped the skinnies back on the track it was bewilderment for a split second, then all hell broke loose again as it came back to life. The motor didn't die, just lost CONSIDERABLE power for 1/4 to 1/2 a second. I really don't think it could have emptied the float bowls in a half a second,, not even if it only had even 2 or 3 psi. Jet entensions may be the simple cure for a lot of this. It leavespretty hard and was on the rise in a heartbeat,, then someone turned on the throttle stop (that I don't even have) and the 'sky view' was all over.

I knew there would be a learning curve,, but I sure didn't expect a 1/2 a second loss right out of the box! I guess I should go unload the pig and see if I can find anything obvious!

BTW, all those that remember the mega thread about the RPM woes in this motor,, the damn thing went to 7k clean as a whistle last night on alcohol,,, go figure! It just won't get away from the tree now http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/frown.gif

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I dunno Marv it sure does sound like its running out of gas. what did patrick have to say about the jet extensions?

Who would have EVER thought that the type of gas you were using had anything to do with the RPM of the motor. Did you ever try another flavor when you were trying to sort out the RPM issue? I dont really see what that would have had to do with anything but.......

Bob

You just can't win Marv,if it's not one thing it's another.If you don't have extensions I could see it uncovering the jets in a hurry with methanol and the fact that your car launches pretty violent.

....that suxs

It hasn't developed a tolerance for the alky yet.
Face it your little Deuce is a lightweight.

Keep feeding it large quantities of 198 proof and it'll get used to it http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

Marv let me do some checking on your problem with a couple of alky friends and I will get back to you.

I know your pump is pushing a lot of fuel but at launch are you sure the fuel is getting to the carb.

Marv, we run our BBC on alcohol with blocked power valves and jetted 177 square, that is a HP950 carb. On a race only engine i don't think you should ever run PVs and i would run bowl and rear jet extensions. I also run a belt drive pump and it idles at 3-4psi and max of about 10. what was the water temp at launch and what did it do during the pass. i'd stage at about 160-170 and it should gain 10 degrees during the pass. oh, how is the mph compared to running gas.

[This message has been edited by Greg Mc (edited December 06, 2003).]

Possiblility of fuel blowing out of primary vent and flooding the engine?

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Not so rusty any more!

Bob I changed to C-14 (115 motor octane) and it didn't do anything that it wasn't doing on c-12 (108 motor octane). I really think there is something in the tiny chamber, flat top, tight quench that was causing a detonation brought on by a 'rate of compression' at higher rpm's. At only 12.55:1 there is no reason it should want more than c-12, but it sure loves the cool dense charge of the wood squeezins.

Greg I got 3 laps. Seems every moron with a K&N sticker on their Civic wanted to play at the track last night. The slick lanes were blocked most of the night, but,, I tried bringing the car to the line at 150, 160 and 185. It made no difference in launch or MPH. I'm off 3mph to the 1/8th, but it's picking up 25mph between the 1/8th and the 1/4. Thats 3-4mph more gain than it did with gas. Tourque on the top end is ausome,, but the first 1/2 of the track SUX!!

This may be as simple as a pump cams, squirters and jet extensions,, but I went totally unprepared with no upgrades for anything. Just got too used to bolting a ProSystems carb on and going racing I guess!

rust, fuel slosh is a possibility for sure at launch, but it does have the tall vent tubes. I'm running a cowl hood with an air pan sealed to the hood so no forward facing scoop to blow past the vent. Squirters are the raised #45's with the high flow screw. It was set up with a yellow pump cam on position 1.

Nothing a little fuel injection wouldn't cure
http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Lowend:
Nothing a little fuel injection wouldn't cure
http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif</font>

....or a BBC http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

Sounds like you're running out of fuel off the line. I have no experience with methanol and carbs, but my buddy had an Enderle methanol fuel injection on his 492" last year. It was crisp as hell off idle and revved like nobodys business. He also ran a belt driven fuelpump. Almost impossible to run lean on a system like that. Usually a methanol motor also like a tad larger headers than a gas motor.
Just my .02

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//Fred

Fuel injection, Marv. You won't regret it.

Back in about 1980 the wife said I had already spent too much on alcohol. If she knew what you guys were trying to talk me into,, she would visit each and every one of you with her "Lorainna Bobbet' knife http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

alky digital injection system: $3500

controller/Data recorder and all the sensors, bells and whistles to go with it: $2500

Laptop to read the stupid thing and change the maps: $1200

Being able to slap the gas carb back on the POS and being done with this mess: PRICELESS!!!!!

First race is Jan 28th. If they don't give us a T&T before then I'm slapping the gas back to it just for the first race. Second team race is in April. Maybe I can get things sorted out before then.



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I know in my sprint car if the temp is anything below 190 it falls on it's face ,then it comes back to life at about 3,200 rpm's. If the temp is over 200 the car runs like a bat outta hell. I also found playing with the squirter cam timing helped a little.

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A Little Power Is Good,More Is Better,To Much Is Just Right

www.scrafan.com/others/wss-ncma/main.html

My car is at the bottom of the page #11

Greg and 70 Z UC,
what kind of timing are you running? I was told to start with 3-4 degrees less than the motor wanted on gas. Seems to be working the wrong way??? Shouldn't it want MORE timing with methonol??? I don't have excessive compression, only 12.55:1 with a tiny chamber, AFR210's angle milled to 55cc, 0.039 gasket, zero deck and JE flat tops with 6cc's of final reliefs.

our car seems to run best with timing in the 36-38 range; tried as low as 32. this is with a MSD 6AL box, nothing special Many say you can run less timing with alcohol and it will mph a little better. I'd start at 38 then work down to 32 and see what happens.

Between 38-40, I run Pro Action 220cc, 14.3:1 JE's, .601 lift Solid, Victor Jr., 3.50 stroke, 6" rods, Brasswell Carb.

I was thinking of your problem late last night. I remember having another of the same kind of problem. I run a vacuum controlled Fuel preasure regulator. While on the throttle it closes the return, and off throttle it opens the fuel return. The diaphram inside had a very small hole causing the regulator not to function properly. It would run very rich until the fuel cleared out of the cylinders. I could tell it was way to rich because my EGT gauge was reading 800deg. instead of 1200-1300deg.

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A Little Power Is Good,More Is Better,To Much Is Just Right

www.scrafan.com/others/wss-ncma/main.html

My car is at the bottom of the page #11

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by 70 Z UC:

I was thinking of your problem late last night.
</font>

Man I HATE for anyone else to loose sleep over this,, Lord knows I've dont that enough!!!

I'm running the Mallory 4307M regulator which has the vacuum/boost compensator, but I'm not using it as it says it could be something to play with and see if it helps. Mallory makes it sound like it would only increase pressure under boost, but it should work to raise pressure once vacuum falls of at WOT. I'll play with that a little too.

Sounds like the advice of less timing for alcohol may be good advice, but no one is apparently following it. I am running a high gear / high speed retard taking out 4 degrees of advance in high gear only. Maybe that explains why ET was down so bad but MPH was nearly what it ran on a 10.50 pass with gas. With the wide open chamber and no mountian in the way of the flame front this thing has never liked a lot of timig. I'll puff it up to around 38-40 for 1st and 2nd gear, then pull 5 or 6 out of it in high gear and see what happens.

Jet extensions, a little more agressive pump shot, more timing, raising fuel pressure at the snap of the throttle.... sounds like I'm changing a hell of a lot all at once, TABOO for a bracket racer but we got to get a clean pass out of this POS before looking at what it likes and dislikes!!


Now,,, where to find a vacuum port on a stinking Dominator!!! (LMFAO)

Thanks for the insight guys



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<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Marv Davis:
Mallory makes it sound like it would only increase pressure under boost, but it should work to raise pressure once vacuum falls of at WOT. I'll play with that a little too.

Now,,, where to find a vacuum port on a stinking Dominator!!! (LMFAO)

</font>

Yup Marv, that is how the reg will work. On my reg, a Kinsler, I ref. to vac and have 38 at idle and 45 Wide open. Tap your manifold for the vac right in the plenum and screw in a hose barb. Simple eh?

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70 SS 454 CI Dynoed 650+HP (with old cam) All Aluminium Fuel Injected Small Block 708HP (based on Engine Analyzer) with new cam, 908HP with 200 shot of Nitrous Express go juice. 1208 if I put the big jets in it and want to bust rings.

I have talked to a couple of people and they said you will need jet extensions. Mess with your fuel pressure and timing.

At least your weather isn't 20 degrees. It is to damn cold here today.

Marv,

Our buddy Howard Page runs locked at 40-42 degrees in his Supermodified, but that is with a big dome and 4.31" bore.

As for more or less, my group at QUB has measured burn characteristics on engines running methanol (Nissan IRL). Burn duration was consistently much longer than you'd see with gasoline, and ignition delay was about the same. This correlates well with the advice I've always heard, that you want more advance with methanol than gasoline.

Man if that reg. is any thing like the way mine works, Your flooding your motor @ idle. I set mine (with Holley Jet in Reg.) to flow 3psi @ 2,000rpm's. Then I adjust the Psi. to 10-11 at 4,000 with the allen. All this is done with the vacuum line off.

Not sure, but isn't your comp. a little low for Methanol? I Had a buddy I race with, go from 64cc Pro Actions with 14.0:1 comp. to the new 50cc Pro actions with 12.5:1 comp. He said the bottom is a dog now, and wants to go back.

Yeah it's pretty low for alcohol. But everyone I talked with said it's not quite 'borderline' yet. A few different very respected engine builders told me 12.0:1 and above is where you see the benefits alcohol offers (mid range torque). It apparently will run on less, but there is no benefit till you get to 12.0 I'm launching at 4800 and shifting at 6600 (for now) keeping in the 'mid-range' for a small block. http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

I had to really fight the fuel system to get pressure down to 8.5 psi and saw 4psi at the top of 2nd gear. Getting the regulator connected 'correctly' with the vacuum ought to correct a lot of that. Would be nice if Mallory would have explained that it wasn't only to sense boost, but for idle vacuum too.

A few tweeks in the carb, bringing ignition timing and fuel psi up,,, we'll see if I can get it to take the snap of the throttle and sit against the low side rev limiter for 2 or 3 seconds. After that all I can do is wait for January and the track to open back up.

Again, thanks guys

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Marv Davis:
all I can do is wait for January and the track to open back up.
</font>

HOLY Sheep crap!
Marv I feel for you buddy What are you going to do in the three weeks that the track is closed? and here over in the East coast i thought I had it made just having to wait 4.1/2 months to be able to get my next run in. lmao. better bring the old spare steering wheel and shifter into the family room, keep the reflexs intune
http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

Yeah,, I'm having withdrawals already... Thinking about ordering a practice tree to keep the old thumb in tune http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

Marv at least you aren't under 4-6" of snow. I don't mind it snowing if I have something to ski on but in Oklahoma the highest point in the city is a land fill.

Hey Marv, I read all the time and never post. I,m fairly new member. Dont give up I run an 1150 Dominator on a 406 street motor (ha he) in Missouri and alot of guys I know turn the carb sidways including myself it is a square for a reason, No fuel slosh trouble. Remove the power valves and jet the thing to around 165 to 170. I also run (2) holley blues, -12 to holley regulator, -12 to One inch fuel log with a valve in other end that closed as carb opens, make sure the log is on the front side of the carb, and -8 back to the tank. At idle I run 3psi and at wide open I hit 10-12psi this also limits oil contamination when I take the beast out crusing for Mustangs. I only have around 12.9 to 1 comp. but it is on a set of Ross flat tops. My heads should be flowing around 315 on the intake, and my cam is prety small at 263 duration and 595/635 Int/exh. As far as timing I'm still playing with it BUT I have the came in 4* advanced and runing 50* total timing at 3200rpm. DON"T give up this combination gives 10 in/hg at IDLE! However is slugish below 170* I also have throtle responce comparitable to a Rons flying tolet set up with street manners. Once you get the combination you will need AA to kick the habit. Good luck A fellow Alcholic

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Pc3:
HOLY Sheep crap!
Marv I feel for you buddy What are you going to do in the three weeks that the track is closed? and here over in the East coast i thought I had it made just having to wait 4.1/2 months to be able to get my next run in. lmao. better bring the old spare steering wheel and shifter into the family room, keep the reflexs intune
http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif</font>
Me too, 6 months from the time it shuts down to the first t/t here unless I want to drive 800 miles to Mission in March which is what I may just do.
In the meantime we are having our first Practice Tree Winter Nationals tonight at my place.lol
I even have a couple prizes that were donated to give away.Never know if this takes off I may have a new hobby for the winter. http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

drock sounds like our packages are somewhat along the same lines (flat top, small chamber small block). I have a LONG ways to go to find out what this thing likes. But everyone seems to be running WAY more advance than I expected or was advised. Your running 50* !!! wow, WAY more than I expected even on alcohol. Timing may be the key to getting this thing to 'fly right' in the first 1/2 of the track. I know I'm letting ego get in the way here. I finished 6th in the series last year (my first year in Pro, a 40 car field with the likes of John Taylor, Jeff Hughes and LOTS of long cars) and just don't have the track time to sort out all the problems before the first race. The team captian just sent me the 2004 schedule and looks like I'll get one shot at sorting things out before the first race in mid January. If things don't go well I'm slapping the gas carb back on so I have some sort of baseline to start from. Can't let those points slip away ya know http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

craggar,
you can always follow Manny's lead,,, he's moving from snowy Conn. to sunny warm Az. in January. In fact Manny's looking at houses 15 minutes from the track. (and he's trying to convince the wife that accessibility to the track has NOTHING to do with it,,, LMFAO suuuuure it doesn't)

BTW Manny, you can tell the little bride that you will be busy:
JANUARY 25th 8am APRIL 18th 8am
MAY 15th 6pm JUNE 12th 6pm
JULY 17th 6pm AUGUST 21st 6pm
SEPTEMBER 11th 6pm

and:
NON-POINT EVENTS
April 24th, MONSTER TRUCK SHOW (TEAM INVITE ONLY)
June 19th JETS VS FUNNY CAR SHOW (TEAM INVITE ONLY)
November 14th, KING OF THE TRACK CHAMPIONSHIP AND BRACKETS

and:
Saturday Test And Tune Gates Open At 5pm
MAY 8TH JUNE 5TH
JULY 10TH AUGUST 14TH
SEPTEMBER 4th
OCTOBER 30TH

and:
SUNDAY TEST AND TUNE GATES OPEN AT 8am
JANUARY 18th APRIL 4th
NOVEMBER 14th

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Proud member of the "bright side"
Track toy (http://www.small-block-chevy.com/nova.htm)
Weekend Grocery getter (http://www.small-block-chevy.com/md_toy.htm)

http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif nice schedule ummm which of if any of them dates is for me to get up and go to work??? NONE U say?thanks Buddy lol
2 weeks and counting Marv

I envy Manny. If the wife and I could find jobs like we have now down there I'd be on my way Marv.I just found out the other day that a good friend of mine got transfered to there so I have another reason to go down now.Sooner or later I'll make down your way even if it is only for a visit.