View Full Version : Welp,, It wasn't ignition either
07-14-2002, 03:10:00 PM
<insert huge sigh of disgust here>
I give up. I'm beat and just don't have the time, $'s or energy to fight this damn thing any more. Pulled all the Mallory stuff out of the car and replaced it with a MSd digital 6, blaster coil, billet distributor, 8.5mm wires,,, bla bla bla bla bla, 100% totally new ignition system. Pulled the shiftnoid off the box and changed to a dedenbear cc-3 to make all rpm sensing seperate from the ignition. SAME DAMN BS!!!. 6500rpm and it's all done,, pops, farts, and flutters like it's eating it's self alive. I give up. A year and a half, 2 carbs, 2 intakes, 3 sets of valve springs (560# open), 3 complete seperate ignitions, new fuel system, plenty of fuel pressure, cam timing changes (+6 to +6 and everything in between), leakdown tests, 5 sets of intake/carb gaskets, hundreds of spark plugs (various brands and heat ranges), octane from 108-117 makes no difference, timing all the way down to 28 total, jets up to 95/99, cam lobes are fine..... NOTHING I do to this POS shows where the problem is and it's time to admit it's beaten me. No reason this thing won't go to 7500 like it was built for (and did),,, but it won't. Enough is enough.
Marv: ZERO (which also represents how much I have left to spend on this SOB)
So,,that's it. This week the motor comes out and get's kicked in a dark dusty corner. A 'frankenstine' 355 POS will go back in as soon as I dream up some combination from the crap laying around the shop. All I have to do is be able to dial 11.99 or quicker for my class. That shouldn't be any problem but I guess it's time to say goodby to the 10's for a while.
07-14-2002, 07:48:00 PM
Marv - I wouldnt have lasted half that time.
Just for the record - my buddy up here thinks its in the tranny or converter.
Seeing your looking for a new combo.......
PPPLLEEEAAAASSSSSEEEEE Try running a 400.
I would be eternally grateful. A 432 in that Nova would be a beatiful thing.
72SS 406 350T(4200 stall) 9INCH/411 2890 pounds (and dropping)
07-14-2002, 09:58:00 PM
have u tried a a different carb marv with this new set up is this the result of your latest trip 2 the track
the only reason i ask is because i havent been able to get past 6400 at the far end with this 750 and dont even come close to the rev limiter ,when the s/b was in camaro and i was running the 850and the 1000 cfm it would hit the limiter everytime
cant wait for that new 850 come in
be patient buddy.... i can relate Man!
F&$%kin suxs when shit dont go right and one devotes so much energy, time and $
Justin Bieber (http://justinbieberfan.info/)
07-15-2002, 12:52:00 AM
Wade, Hughes went through the trans and cut the convertor apart and freshened it just 5 or 6 months ago,,, no help. I've considered building a 400 based motor but I gave my '509' block to a friend in need. In fact he's convinced me to try ONE LAST TIME. He's an old Pro crew chief and is sending me one of his 4150 carbs. I'll slap another superVic intake (with a 4150 flange) on this motor and give it a try this weekend. His reasoning is this HAS to be a combination of problems. That's why I changed carbs and it didn't help. Had Prosystems go through the dominator and I put it back on, still no help. Then I changed ignitions. Harry's thought is I havent tried another carb WITH the new ignition. What the heck. I have a month before the next race so I'll postpone a motor transplant a week to give it one last shot. The 'combination of problems' makes sense,, nothing else does and that's for sure.
Besides the only reason I'm building a 355 is I have plenty of fair components to do it with. IF the carb doesn't show the problem a 355 is going in SOLELY so I can make a motor spin 7500+ in this chassis. (to prove the b*tch is, or is not posessed!!!) If it scatters, it scatters I don't give a $#!+ as long as it does it above 7500rpm.
Manny a month or so ago I slapped a VicJr on it and a 4779 carb. (while I had Patrick go through the dominator) Went to the track jetted up real fat and it was the same thing,, 6500 and no more. Was a little weak, but was fine under 6500. It wasn't near enough carb for the motor but it hit the same wall at the same rpm. That's what convinced me it had to be ignition. I'm not holding out much hope carb will be the cure but WTF it's worth one last shot. The car went 10.79 this weekend in 4000' air, shifting at 6400. You and I both know that's just not right! The only reason this thing isn't going 10.3's like it used to is I can't get it to rev.
07-15-2002, 07:02:00 AM
Welt was talking planetary this and that. Technical tranny talk that puts me to sleep.
How long has that tranny been doing passes?
EVERY TIME I doubt Welton - he is right. I just want it on the record. If that 355 goes in and falters.......
72SS 406 350T(4200 stall) 9INCH/411 2890 pounds (and dropping)
07-15-2002, 08:57:00 AM
Will it rev to 6500+ at no load, In the shop?
Could it be a hood scoop problem? If it is only at speed its possible.
A dyno test may help, to give the motor a load at high rpm,s without the ram-air effect. Gas could be siphoned out of the fuel bowl vents at speed, or something.
If you have a way of using an O2 sensor at speed to see what happens.
Just trying to help ya stab in the dark.
My miss was a worn out dist gear, cam gear.
It would rev no load, timing never varied, BUT you should see the dist gear. Half the teeth that were 0.060 thick are about 0.010 thick. But as soon as I launched it was a blubber fork. That is why it was losing a tenth every weekend.
Replaced the cam and dist gear and I'm back to 12.20's @ 110 every weekend.
If something else doesn't crop up I am planning on replacing the 041 heads with a set of 195-200cc aluminum heads. Pro Acton, AFR or Canfields. Just depends on the "Buy" I can find.
[This message has been edited by hhott71 (edited July 16, 2002).]
07-15-2002, 10:31:00 PM
Marv - man I have to say it, but you outta spring for some chassis dyno time.
Pop the extra $$ and have em weld in a wideband O2 bung/sensor... and watch what she does under load
07-15-2002, 11:58:00 PM
I say screw the fancy electronics and put an old HEI in there & see what happens http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif
Better yet, I think Jesper can help you with a NICE BiG BLoCk combo for that ride http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif
Dood, I know you're at your wits end (and all ends)...but like Brett said, its time to let someone ELSE look at her in the right atmosphere. They can take your findings and prolly fins something for you.
07-16-2002, 01:23:00 PM
Marv anchor that b@#$T outside the garage i know u have no grass But hey ya gotta do wut U gotta do.
I know u work it out :
the pink chevy AT firebird raceway must be winking at u aaaaaaaaaaa http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif
driving u nutts
07-17-2002, 07:24:00 AM
<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Marv Davis:
A 'frankenstine' 355 POS will go back in soon... All I have to do is be able to dial 11.99 or quicker for my class. That shouldn't be any problem but I guess it's time to say goodby to the 10's for a while.</font>
Wanna borrow a cheater sys.???? http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif
Seriously though, sorry to hear the gremlins have taken up residents. I'm not sure what it will prove but maybe dynoing the engine out of the car might turn something up?
07-20-2002, 12:19:00 PM
Sorry to hear you haven't found it yet Marv.As you know I'm going through a major miss thing too which is still there btw but I haven't had time to insulate the fuel lines and put on my cool can yet but I did find something the leads me too believe it's fuel related for sure.While I was in Portland I used the car to travel back n forth to my training and had to give one of the instructors a ride since he was an old car guy and the the only time the car missed a beat was when I hit the rev limiter at 6800 for a second I couldn't get it to do it no matter how hard I tried and it was as hot as it has been here.When I checked the plugs they looked a little lean which I expected from the better air.I didn't get a chance to race it there because we were late getting back from the coast but I'm sure it would have worked fine.Makes me think it's jetted rich for here but the plugs say different.So like you back to the drawing board.
07-20-2002, 01:20:00 PM
I'm done Cragger, I'm tossing in the towel. It has to be internal. Went to the track last night with yet a 3rd intake (a Vic Jr this time), a borrowed (& very tricked out) carb from a good friend. Jet up, jet down, less timing, more timing, cut every wire except the absolutely necessary (ignition, fuel pump, a tail light and water pump) and had the same sorry results. That's it. The motor is coming out and going on a stand till I have the right frame of mind to deal with it. Tossing together a little 355 right now to get me through the season and to prove once and for all that a motor CAN and WILL spin to 7k+ in this chassis with this (or any other) ignition, fuel supply......
Once I have the $'s and time to go through the motor, find the problem and put it on a dyno it will go back in,,, but not one second before I see it go to 7500 on a dyno.
I sincerely hope your doesn't become the year (+)long frustration mine has been.
07-20-2002, 11:10:00 PM
07-20-2002, 11:11:00 PM
You sure you ain't floatin valves?
07-21-2002, 12:38:00 PM
Chris with 560# at .600 and only .625 lift,, and the 3rd set of springs I wouldn't think it would have a problem getting past 6500 but..... #$%^&*
My only thought now is I have lifters bouncing on the lobe, valves dancing off the seats, a lifter hanging in the bore or a valve guide / valve stem problem somewhere. Something that I missed last two times the motor went together. I've pretty much eliminated every external possibility. Were down to valve train. I've never been overly happy with this Lunati cam and it's BS with the asymeterical lobe. (You remember all the headache with intake centerline, peak lift vs duration vs cam card!) So something is going to change there. I'll scrutinize every item between the valve seats and the cam bearings as it comes apart. Maybe something will show it's ugly head.
On a more positive note,, took the truck to the track last night for some T&T. Man I had forgotten what it's like to have FUN at the track.
07-21-2002, 03:11:00 PM
Just off the wall....do you have a REV KIT on there Marv ?
Just an idea since the local subject has been mentioned.....
07-22-2002, 01:22:00 AM
Have you tried running without the tach? Or a different tach? I understand that youve got electronics on board that do the rev limiting for you. But do you have a rev limiting tach (even if your not using it)? Could it be messed up and doing its own thing?
Keep you head up Marv - your slowest vehicle is faster then my fastest!
72SS 406 350T(4200 stall) 9INCH/411 2890 pounds (and dropping)
07-22-2002, 10:48:00 AM
Well Marv,I'm sure mine is a heat problem with the fuel like I said it worked good in Portland and yesturday I made it to the semi's before I RED lighted.The weather was cooler and as it warmed up I could feel it lay down just a bit so now it's time for the cool can and insulate the crap out of my fuel system.BTW I got a .500 light to knock out one of the guys I pit with in the first round who almost always beats me.If it wasn't for the RED light it would have been a great day.
07-22-2002, 02:55:00 PM
Heres a long shot.. Maybe its some kind of RFI interference in the area itself. Has it happened at only one track??
My Ford rep once told me about a veh that would stall on a driver everytime he made a right turn onto his street, everytime, like clockwork... Car ran perfectly otherwise. They called a local FSE out to drive the car and verify it, then an engineer.. Turns out there was some type of RFI interference in that general spot that was buzzing the crank sensor each time the made that turn.
Shut up, get in, sit down and hold on... Why are you looking at me like im crazy??
07-22-2002, 06:42:00 PM
Without rehashing a LONG freeking list of investigations. Trust me guys, it's internal somewhere somehow. I've eliminated every possibility of electrical, electronic, ignition, fuel delivery and carb, convertor, trans, cam walk, cam timing, valve springs, and peak lift checked out out on every lobe long after this problem started. I just refused to believe it was something under the intake manifold,, but there's nothing left.
Whatever it turns out to be has been a very expensive lesson to learn.