I've been looking for a Camaro for months. I finally found a gorgeous 1970 1/2 Z28 nearby. It's a non numbers matching car. I was getting ready to make the guy an offer but I came up with a big discrepancy...

The VIN # is 124871N571788. This translates to a 1971 not a 1970. However the cowl tag shows that it is a 1970 Z28.

I know there was some weirdness in the 1970 model year. Is this correct, or is this a 1971 camaro with a cowl tag from 1970???

Any quick help would be GREATLY appreciated as I wanted to make this guy an offer ASAP.

At first glance, something doesn't look right. See if the VIN on the title matches the VIN number on the car. The VIN info won't match the trim tag, EXCEPT for the model (12487), year, and assembly plant. Norwood built Z28s in '70-72 should have Z28 marked on the trim tag (but there are exceptions to every rule).

There are clues to tell if it's an original Z.

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'71 RS, '80 Z, '94 Z
http://gmz28camaros.homestead.com/gmz28_1.html]My Camaros (http://gmz28camaros.homestead.com/gmz28_1.html)
NorthEastern Ohio Camaro Club (http://clubs.hemmings.com/neocc/)

There are a ton of clones out there. Do your homework.

Check the numbers again, but the year on the VIN should match the trim tag. If they don't someone swapped them...someone's trying to pass the car off as a Z, when it isn't.

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1973 Type LT (http://www.mncc.cc/rides/brown73.htm) Original Engine, Black Vinyl Top
1968 2 door sport coupe (http://www.mncc.cc/rides/brown68.htm)...the toy!
1970 Chevelle SS396...all ORIGINAL!!! (and it looks it right now, too!)

DigiWeb Creations (http://www.digiwebcreations.com): My website design company...
American Muscle Cars (http://www.americanmusclecars.net): THE resto shop
The Monday Nite Car Club! (http://www.mncc.cc) Our car club...

The car is titled as a '71. I took a picture of the cowl tag and it didn't turn out very well. I didn't know how to decode it while I was there so I didn't look at it very hard. The more I look at the picture it might show '71 on the cowl tag as well. It's very hard to tell from the picture. I'll have to call the guy in the morning morning to have him check it for me.

I also checked, and it's got a 12-bolt rear end which is correct for a '70 Z28, but incorrect for a '71 Z28 I believe.

So let's assume worse case scenerio for a moment. Let's assume it's just a decent Z/28 clone. It wasn't a numbers matching or hell even a correct driveline to begin with. The paint is a 10, the body is a 10, the interior is a 9, and engine compartment and underbody are detailed. It's got a 454, a TH400, a 12-bolt with 3.73s. It's a gorgeous car compared to all the other first gen and early second gen cars I've been looking at for the last 4 months.

So the big question is.... is $13,800 a fair price for a very clean, mechanically sound 1971 Z28 clone? Here is a picture...
http://images.traderonline.com/EMedia/tarchive2/600/002111104/00211110402.jpg

Thanks for the great info and quick replies guys!

[This message has been edited by doc_d (edited March 10, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by doc_d (edited March 10, 2002).]

Looks like a very nice car!

You're in the best position to decide if it's a good deal...considering the price and condition of other Camaros you've looked at recently.

I wouldn't say it's a great deal, but it probably is a fair price.

Just get the "numbers" figured out and make sure it has a clean title.

$13,800 is too much for that car IMHO. I think $10,000 +/- $1000 is more realistic....

I am just being honest.....

Without seeing the car I can't say if it's
too much but I know lots of people who
have passed on cars to save a couple thousand dollars and still gripe about the one that got away.

13,800 seems kind of high (just an opinion...and you know the old saying). Does it have high-back front seats ('71+) or low backs ('70 only)?

You better look on the frame or under the heater box for a partial vin or sometime in the future you may have to return the car to the rightfull owner.

Well I spent the last hour playing around with photoshop and was finally able to verify the cowl tag does indeed show "ST 71 12487" It also shows Z28.19. The paint code is 52 52 and the interior is 775. The build date is 05A. So if I'm reading this correctly that makes it a '71 Z28 that was originally sunflower yellow with black stripes and had standard black vinyl interior.

I also got a hold of the guy at work. I think he is just confused as to what it means to be a 70 1/2. I think he had it in his head that this car was produced in '71 but was still sold as a '70 model.

So the car is titled as a '71, it's VIN shows it as a '71, and the cowl tag shows it as a '71 Z28. It does have high back seats (I think you can even pick it out in that picture).

I would also agree that $13,800 might be a bit high if it was a clone. However everything is starting to point to the fact this indeed might be a '71 Z28. I will check a few other things on the car (rear sway bar, etc).

Thanks again for all the great info guys!

Look for evidence of a floor mounted gas pedal (you may have to pull up the carpet on the driver's side to do that...you're looking for a "bracket" welded to the floor pan).

It would seem to me that basing a price on a "real" Z doesn't really apply here. You have a car with a clearly non-stock engine and if I remember correctly, the 71s didn't come with a 12 bolt. For all you know, it may have been a 4 speed originally.
So you have a car that has been pretty significantly modified, not that that is bad but it certainly means that using a numbers matching Z28 as a guide for determing value isn't appropriate.
If you arrive at a price whether both parties have some pucker factor involved, then you probably have arrived at a fair price.

[This message has been edited by gin man (edited March 11, 2002).]

Check for the floor mounted gas pedal. It's one of the best checks to verify its a Z28. Also it's a Rally Sport to boot. I have a 71 Sunflower Yellow Z28/RS. I would say its a fair price. You can spend loads on paint and body work alone.

The floor mounted gas pedal bracket is bolted to the floor. You can look from underneath the car for the two nuts. I also have a Sunflower Yellow 71 Z28/RS.

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tazman
71 Z28/RS, 73 Z28, 70 Chevelle SS

All considering it's a real Z, IMO it's in the upper range that the car can bring, but In time it will be justified (although never as fast or high as the original LT1). This is not a car that you can pick up and turn for a couple of bucks in the present market. However, considering the prices of genuine first gen z's today, the second gen's have got to start comanding some of that inertia. Also about the floor mounted gas pedal sindrome. From what we have come to find out, these things have been changed out for various reasons and if you do not find a bracket mounted to the floor, ask the owner where it is. He just may have it, like an owner of a car that I bought did. However, if you are looking at a car with what appears to be original floor sheetmetal and you see no signs of that bracket, I would seriously consider looking at a few more cars.

I would say about $7500 for that car would be reasonable. Figure about $2000 to return it to the correct color, $500 for correct wheels, $2000 for date coded 350, for a finished car worth about $ 13500. I have a 71 Z, and know they will never be worth as much as a 70.

$7500!?! If you can find me a car in this condition (z28 or RS) for $7500, I'd pay you a $2000 finders fee. I appreciate your opinion, and I admit there are a lot of things I don't know about camaros. However 4 months of looking at lots and lots of cars tells me $7,500 for a very clean camaro (especially non numbers matching z28) would be an amazing deal.

Anything I looked at in the $7000 range (we are talking non-Z28s) was in pretty poor shape. The best $7000 car I looked at needed paint, interior, bright-work replaced/refinished, and some trim replacement; although the body and mechanicals were in good shape.

I did a quick check on collector car trader online. The average price for a NON Z28 '71 camaro is currently $8,861.67. I've looked at several of these cars and they are not nearly as nice. Wavy body panels, horrible paint, cracked dash pads, leaking rear mains, faded bright-work, weld beads visible on sheet metal repairs, etc.

I also did a check for the average 1971 Z28 price. It is currently $16,166.67.

Now I did just run into a 1973 Camaro Z/28 with a 4-speed that is numbers matching. I will be going to see the car tomorrow. They are asking $10,500 for it. I'm assuming it's pretty clean. I know a lot people only consider up to '71 or '72 as "classic cars". Even more people consider '71 the end of the muscle car era. So the question becomes what would you buy given the choice between a SUPER clean '71 Z28/RS that is not numbers matching for $13,800, or a reasonably clean '73 Z28 (not a RS) that is numbers matching for $10,500.

Thanks again everybody

Like it or not, I'd go after the 73Z with matching everything.

Figure this matching numbers originality BS is what $$$$$ is based on.

And the 73Z is original. The value will go up.

The 71, while nice and probably worth the $$$ is "messed up". If you blow the engine up, you just destroyed $5000 of value on the car. i.e. the value of this car can only go down, or stay the same. It will not increase because it's not now, nor ever will be, original.

Buy a car you'll enjoy. You'd be able to enjoy the 71 more because you can beat it and not worry about the investment damage your doing to it. You don't need to worry about putting the wrong spark plug wires on it and ruining $2000 of value off your cream puff.

No matter what you get, make sure you get as much car for the money you spend. It would suck to spend top dollar for a vehicle that needs $$$$$ in repairs or fixing.

Thanks Mike! You hit the nail on the head. I really do want a driver. I live right off Woodward Ave, so this certainly won't be a trailer queen. Between Woodward and Gratiot this car will be driven a minimum of 2 nights a week. An original Z28 is a low 13 second car, but around here that only gets you respect from the 16 year old kids driving stock mustangs. So I know I'd be apt to want to do some motor work.

Well the guy who owns the white '73 Z28 for $10,500 just called me back. I had talked to his wife before.

His wife had said the car was numbers matching. It turns out the car is not numbers matching. The motor and rear-end are not original. The car needs paint, has minor rust, and could use interior work. Also the heat does not work. Mechanically it is sound. So the $10,500 doesn't sound like such a deal after all. I'll probably still go take a look for reference though.

After looking for 4 months I don't feel like I am rushing into anything. Bar none the '71 is the nicest I've seen (including all the first gens I've looked at). It's also local which ends up saving me $600 - $1200 in travel expenses and shipping the car. The bottom line is that car is really turns my crank, so I'm going to go ahead and buy it. I'd rather pay a little too much for a car I completely lust after than to get a great deal on a car that doesn't do it for me.

doc_d,
Buy what makes you happy! http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif Only you know the work involved in the cars that you've looked at. We can only give you our opinions. Sounds like the '71 is in better shape, so I would lean in that direction. If you get the '71, please post more pictures.

Have fun with your new Camaro!!!

doc, I assume you have been pricing cars here in the rust belt as I did. NICE cars around the Great Lakes do indeed tend to cost more, original or not. If you have the time and trailer go way south or way west and you will get a very nice car for a couple thousand less. BUT if that is not an option or not worth the hassle then check your car of choice out VERY closely ie; body work, paint and especialy rear frame around and above the rear axle. Don't let your emotions get the better of you!!! If the car is as nice as it appears in the pic you are paying in the upper end of the price range for this region of the country. I really questioned what I paid for mine and it was close to done project car. Also remember that no matter how nice it will still cost you more with the add ons to make the car feel like your own. If you have done your home work, aren't morgaging the farm and it will make you (and the family) happy. Then go for it and we will see you at Camaro Superfest in Ann Arbor.

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Ray C
73 Z28 4 speed
96 Camaro V6 Auto
http://www.zmanstoy.HOMESTEAD.COM/zpage1.html

doc_d, it sounds to me like you're not into body work at all or numbers matching for that matter. I don't know, maybe you'd save OE for selling but anyway, I'd go for the '71. Looks good. When I got mine, I had to limp it to storage because it wouldn't make it home. I thought I knew what I was getting into. Oops. The car has sentimental value to me though. I'm so anxious to take it out for a spin it's driving me crazy. I hate road salt! That and the fact that it's missing some critical componants is what prevents me from doing so.

hey dock , when did you see a stock early second gen z turn a low 13? I thought that they were a 14 second car at best (im talking stock)

Sorry, I did not mean to insult you or the car. Just tring to help you get a really good deal. I am currently about finished with my '71 non numbers matching Z28. It is a rust-free 4 spd, 3.73 car with correct distributor, NOS Holley carb, and has build sheet. It is Mulsanne blue with white stripes and came with the low spoiler. It will be for sale soon so I can begin my '70 Z project and I would be thrilled to get $ 13,500 for it.

[This message has been edited by spicewood1 (edited March 21, 2002).]

Yeah I agree, do your homework...
I wouldn't pay that much especially if you think the guy is about to bend ya over and screw ya....

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A roll of duct tape, bailing wire, and a little luck! It should hold together....

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by michael:
hey dock , when did you see a stock early second gen z turn a low 13? I thought that they were a 14 second car at best (im talking stock) </font>

There was a very nice & original BB Camaro (70 I think, maybe 71) that was turning high 13's, low 14's all weekend long at last weekend's Phoenix Super Chevy show. He went 4 rounds & then broke out like a bunch of other cars including our buddy Marv. http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

Since my digital camera was still at Sony, I shot a couple rolls of 35mm. If they turn out okay, I'll post a few.