View Full Version : ZZ4 Header Woes


Z20AINT
09-03-2010, 09:12:32 AM
Wait till you hear this story. Got my 73 together with a ZZ4 and thought I'll put on some headers. No big deal popular GM crate engine, popular car, what could go wrong..........

I will list the headers I have tried and their issues.

Patriot Long Tubes: Passenger collector flange hits floor board.
Hedman Elite: Passenger header hits frame.
Hedman Shortys for manual tranny: Cyl#1 tube will not clear the engine mount.
Doug Thorley Tri-Y's: Will not clear the L98 D-port exhaust.
Doug's Headers Tri-Y's: Passenger collector will not clear floor pan.
Hooker Super Comp: Passenger collector will not clear floor pan.
Update 9/22
Hedman 66104: #7 tube hits LCA frame pocket
Patriot Shorties 8056-1: Drivers side hits frame and outlet points at oil filter
Dynatech: PERFECT FIT

I am starting to think my car has issues but it has never been wrecked, the body has new solid bushings, poly engine mounts (they are not higher that stock as I changed them out and it made no difference), and poly tranny mount (does angle engine up but not enough to affect headers as I swapped it out for stock and none of the above headers fit). I know the ZZ4 has exhaust ports raised .1" above stock but that is so small and it would not have made any of these headers fit by dropping the collector .1"

Does anyone have a suggestion? Anyone running a ZZ4 in one of these cars with headers? I am very close to having custom headers made. It just seems that this is a very common combo and I have crappy luck.

my24ktrat
09-03-2010, 09:27:16 AM
...Try flowtech headers , a friend of mine used them in his 69 camaro with the zz4 crate motor, hope that helps, DC:bowtie:

my24ktrat
09-03-2010, 09:28:46 AM
...I've also got hedmans and flowtech in my cars with both the GMFB aluminum heads and GM bowtie vortec heads , DC:bowtie:

Z20AINT
09-03-2010, 09:35:48 AM
...I've also got hedmans and flowtech in my cars with both the GMFB aluminum heads and GM bowtie vortec heads , DC:bowtie:

What PN's by chance? Are they on a 2nd gen?

badazz81z28
09-03-2010, 09:47:06 AM
I got the summit ceramic coated headers. My crate is very similar as the ZZ4. The passenger collector does hit the floor, but I just "massaged" a little to bolt up the exhaust. I think all the headers I have had in the past none were a "perfect" fit, some get in the way of clutch linkage/springs, others hit the floor, others hit the a/c suit case...You just have to keep in mind that headers for our cars are not designed soley for 70-81 Camaros, they are designed to fit other vehicles too.

my24ktrat
09-03-2010, 09:50:40 AM
...Been about 10 yrs or so now ,sorry, both headers are the same ,size wise, flange to collector, height ,etc, 1 set is on my 79 camaro the other is on my 76 monte, got mine from parts america, no leaks using mr gasket ultra seals, also if your a veteran you get 10 % off , hope that helps, DC:bowtie:

Z20AINT
09-03-2010, 09:51:36 AM
I hear what you are saying but my car has had a rotisserie restoration and I am not about to bash my floor. How the heck can no one make a 2nd gen specific header? There were litterally millions of these cars made!


I got the summit ceramic coated headers. My crate is very similar as the ZZ4. The passenger collector does hit the floor, but I just "massaged" a little to bolt up the exhaust. I think all the headers I have had in the past none were a "perfect" fit, some get in the way of clutch linkage/springs, others hit the floor, others hit the a/c suit case...You just have to keep in mind that headers for our cars are not designed soley for 70-81 Camaros, they are designed to fit other vehicles too.

onovakind67
09-03-2010, 09:55:52 AM
Doug Thorley Tri-Y's: Will not clear the L98 D-port exhaust.

Does anyone have a suggestion? Anyone running a ZZ4 in one of these cars with headers? I am very close to having custom headers made. It just seems that this is a very common combo and I have crappy luck.

Put the Tri-Y's on and move on. If the small interference bothers you, do a little grinding or elongate the bolt holes. These headers would be the best performance fit for a mild engine like a ZZ4.

badazz81z28
09-03-2010, 10:29:24 AM
Wow, is custom out of the question? I saw an episode of Horsepower TV where they had custom headers made for thier Nova?

delaware67
09-03-2010, 11:17:37 AM
I have a 72 with a ZZ4 in it. I used Jegs brand ceramic coat headers. the passenger side was a tight fit. Didn't want the flange touching the floor pan so I just dinged the floor pan abit to allow for some space. If you take your time it is not noticed since the flange will just sit in the indentation. I couldn't figure out why the passenger side was such an issue when the driver side fit great, I think it has something to do with keeping the tubes equal length.

Twisted_Metal
09-03-2010, 11:20:26 AM
Hedman Elite: Passenger header hits frame.
Hedman Shortys for manual tranny: Cyl#1 tube will not clear the engine mount.

Use a Shorty on the passenger side and the Elite on the driver's side. :D :D


Maybe you can cure the passenger side Hedman Elite frame interference by moving the tail shaft of the trans towards the driver side?
(Mod the crossmember if you don't have enough adjustment at the mount. It's easy enough to repaint, if needed.)


Or trim the driver's side mount a little to clear the #1 tube of the shorty?

hhott71
09-03-2010, 01:03:19 PM
Hedman 65104 clear angle and straight plugs. Mine don't hit anything and fit up tight with the floor for maximum ground clearance.

Z20AINT
09-03-2010, 01:31:40 PM
Believe me Twisted. I moved that tranny every direction except forward and back. Didn't help. Keep the input coming, I enjoy hearing others experiences!

Use a Shorty on the passenger side and the Elite on the driver's side. :D :D


Maybe you can cure the passenger side Hedman Elite frame interference by moving the tail shaft of the trans towards the driver side?
(Mod the crossmember if you don't have enough adjustment at the mount. It's easy enough to repaint, if needed.)


Or trim the driver's side mount a little to clear the #1 tube of the shorty?

Z20AINT
09-03-2010, 01:32:37 PM
Got any pics?

Hedman 65104 clear angle and straight plugs. Mine don't hit anything and fit up tight with the floor for maximum ground clearance.

Z20AINT
09-03-2010, 01:34:33 PM
Called Doug Thorley headers and they said it would leak no matter what I did and that they have had a lot of complaints about this issue.

BTW,
Ported heads and bigger cam. 400+ HP. Borderline with Tri-y's

Put the Tri-Y's on and move on. If the small interference bothers you, do a little grinding or elongate the bolt holes. These headers would be the best performance fit for a mild engine like a ZZ4.

onovakind67
09-03-2010, 02:11:56 PM
400+ hp is still a very mild engine. You want to install parts that will be in their best performance over the rpm range you are going to spend the most time in. Most guys don't spend a lot of time at the rpm peak.

Z20AINT
09-03-2010, 02:14:46 PM
True.

Back to fittment. Any other suggestions?

400+ hp is still a very mild engine. You want to install parts that will be in their best performance over the rpm range you are going to spend the most time in. Most guys don't spend a lot of time at the rpm peak.

muscl car
09-03-2010, 02:29:57 PM
i'm running an older set of 1-7/8th dia hedman hussler long tube designed for angle plug heads on my camaro with standard straight plug heads and have no issues of clearance anywhere

Skaal-tel 79
09-03-2010, 02:37:51 PM
I run hooker super comps and had zero fitment issues with the zz4 and its heads. running brodix heads now and still no problems.

On my part I would never do this to my own headers BUT

you could heat up the collector and give it a bend.

Do you have any pics of the interference you're talking about?

is it like 1/4" or straight into the firewall, or what?

hhott71
09-03-2010, 02:41:50 PM
Got any pics?

Do a search.
The Hedman hedders 65104 have been discussed hundreds of times, some threads have multiple pics. My pics are in my profile / Photos.

MadMike
09-03-2010, 03:59:55 PM
I have hooker Super comps, ZZ4 with fast burn heads. I had a problem with the passenger side header. It was tilted upward ever so slightly and the collector ring is welded... of course, with the pointy side facing up. Even if the collector ring could be rotated, the thing would have hit the floor. It was bad enough that I knew no amount of floor smashing would fix that.

So I chopped the collector off 3" in front of the flange. Fits fine now.
When I have my exhaust welded onto my car, I'll have the exhaust dude either weld my collector back on ("upside down" - which is probably right side up), or slip join the pipe to the collector.

Either way, these headers would not fit as configured. I hate cutting or smashing anything, but I had to do it to get these in. The other issue is - once these headers are in... they're stuck. In my car at least, there's absolutely no way to remove/install these things without pulling the engine up.

Z20AINT
09-03-2010, 04:22:13 PM
Very interesting! Glad I am not the only one with these issues. I am going to try the Hedman 66104 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HED-66104/

We'll See.

I have hooker Super comps, ZZ4 with fast burn heads. I had a problem with the passenger side header. It was tilted upward ever so slightly and the collector ring is welded... of course, with the pointy side facing up. Even if the collector ring could be rotated, the thing would have hit the floor. It was bad enough that I knew no amount of floor smashing would fix that.

So I chopped the collector off 3" in front of the flange. Fits fine now.
When I have my exhaust welded onto my car, I'll have the exhaust dude either weld my collector back on ("upside down" - which is probably right side up), or slip join the pipe to the collector.

Either way, these headers would not fit as configured. I hate cutting or smashing anything, but I had to do it to get these in. The other issue is - once these headers are in... they're stuck. In my car at least, there's absolutely no way to remove/install these things without pulling the engine up.

Rich Schmidt
09-03-2010, 06:21:40 PM
I had no problems with Hooker 1 7/8 tube super comps on my 73 Firebird with both stock camel hump heads and World Sportsman 2's on stock clamshell mounts. Mine didnt have a collector flange though. I currently have cheap old Blackjack 1 5/8" headers on my 400 hp 408 with stock mounts and they dont come anywhere near anything.

They may be ugly but they work great.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/racer7391/Car%20pics/HPIM0303.jpg



These were a little tighter on the passenger side right against the frame. They didnt hit. I had header heat wrap on them and it wore thru in one or two spots but it was the frame,not the floor. They had no collector flanges. This was WAAAY more header then a ZZ4 needs.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/racer7391/Car%20pics/HPIM0317.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/racer7391/Car%20pics/HPIM0307.jpg

z28rod
09-03-2010, 08:18:18 PM
use shoty headman headers, no problems........

Z20AINT
09-03-2010, 11:07:05 PM
Already tried. See my first post.

use shoty headman headers, no problems........

Eric_04
09-04-2010, 01:15:08 AM
I have 1 7/8 hooker super comps on mine, and they fit excellently. They do not have flanges on the collector though, and I can tell there is no way they would fit with them. Have you considered getting headers with slip fit collectors? Mine just has band clamps and I have never had a leak or any other problem with it.

BondoSpecial
09-04-2010, 01:18:36 AM
Usually w/ the triangle 3 bolt flange headers, they have all hit the pass side floor pan of my 2nd gens and I have had to dent the floor pan. What I did on this current car is cut the 3 bolt flange off and welded on a ball and socket flange. The ball and socket flange is much shorter than the 3 bolt triangle flange and gives a lot more clearance to the floor pan.

The slip fit collector would accomplish the same sort of thing.

z28rod
09-04-2010, 09:47:44 AM
get shorty ball and socket flange headers ceramic coated or ss....

ProStreet383
09-04-2010, 10:35:50 AM
I run hooker super comps and had zero fitment issues with the zz4 and its heads. running brodix heads now and still no problems.

On my part I would never do this to my own headers BUT

you could heat up the collector and give it a bend.

Do you have any pics of the interference you're talking about?

is it like 1/4" or straight into the firewall, or what?


1 7/8" hooker super comps on my Brodix track 1 headed 383 stroker with zero fitment issues. These are really way to big for a mild ZZ4 but they do fit good.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/prostreetcamaro/P1000350.jpg

Z20AINT
09-04-2010, 11:15:17 AM
It is the flange that is giving me the most problems. Sounds like it's not too uncommon of an issue. Without the flange I would be good to go.

muscl car
09-04-2010, 02:21:30 PM
measured the 3 bolt flange on the header to the floor board and i've got close to 1-3/4 to 2 inches of clearance

Z20AINT
09-04-2010, 03:37:09 PM
I'm jealous!
Pics?
measured the 3 bolt flange on the header to the floor board and i've got close to 1-3/4 to 2 inches of clearance

chocs
09-05-2010, 10:27:22 PM
how much space do u need from the floor?http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx73/ateslahead/DSCF3275.jpg

Z20AINT
09-06-2010, 01:28:40 PM
All I can get at this point.

how much space do u need from the floor?http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx73/ateslahead/DSCF3275.jpg

Z20AINT
09-09-2010, 04:20:12 PM
Chocs:
Got any pics of the collectors?

how much space do u need from the floor?http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx73/ateslahead/DSCF3275.jpg

Z20AINT
09-09-2010, 04:22:32 PM
Update:

Tried Hedman 66104 (Ceramic 65104) and the #7 tube hits the control arm mount on the frame like so many others I have heard of on this board. Gonna try Patriot Shorties. If they don't work then I guess custom is the only way to go. Unless Chocs shows me how his Doug's fit to the floor board on what appear to be ZZ4 heads in his pic.

muscl car
09-09-2010, 06:09:03 PM
have you taken measurements on the front subframe and used a plumb bob to check to make sure the subframe is straight and not tweaked ???

Z20AINT
09-10-2010, 12:11:42 AM
Subframe is not tweaked. It's just the damn raised exhaust ports on these ZZ4 heads. I read some posts on a Chevelle board and they are having the same issues. Who would have thought this would be such an ordeal?

have you taken measurements on the front subframe and used a plumb bob to check to make sure the subframe is straight and not tweaked ???

REARSPROCKET
09-10-2010, 08:18:14 AM
This is correct about the raised exhaust ports but IIRC they are only .100 taller. Did you check the body mount bushings? old, shot, or smooshed out stocker bushings will lower the body on the frame and could result in the collecter hitting the floor. My Hooker 2117 SuperComps have the pass collector slightly closer to the floor and slightly canted outboard. I think Hooker's Jig for the pass side is slightly off. If all the headers you've tried are hitting the floor I think there is another issue going on like maybe the body mount bushings or a bent subframe or motor mount issues going on. Check around good and you'll find what's causing the clearence issue. Good Luck :bowtie:

Z20AINT
09-10-2010, 09:09:28 AM
Global West solid aluminum body bushings. (Stock Height). Nothing going on weird. I really think that .1" (as unlikely as it seems) is the problem. That and header manufacturers that have iffy universaly "Camaro" designs.

This is correct about the raised exhaust ports but IIRC they are only .100 taller. Did you check the body mount bushings? old, shot, or smooshed out stocker bushings will lower the body on the frame and could result in the collecter hitting the floor. My Hooker 2117 SuperComps have the pass collector slightly closer to the floor and slightly canted outboard. I think Hooker's Jig for the pass side is slightly off. If all the headers you've tried are hitting the floor I think there is another issue going on like maybe the body mount bushings or a bent subframe or motor mount issues going on. Check around good and you'll find what's causing the clearence issue. Good Luck :bowtie:

Z20AINT
09-13-2010, 08:05:44 PM
Well tried Patriot 8056-1 Shorties. No better than the Hedman shorties. Outlet pointed at the oil filter and hit the frame. The only thing I can think of is Hedman 65119. Has any one installed these. PLEASE, I need pictures. They are said to work with raised exhaust ports.

Z20AINT
09-14-2010, 07:53:00 AM
I might just be posting to myself at this point but I wanted to help others in the future. Decided to order Hedman 65119. Havn't even seen a pic and don't know what to expect.

FYI, I measured the cylinder head deck to bolt hole distace on my ZZ4 heads vs. my stock heads and the dimension is identical. Additionally, the angle of the exhaust port to valve cover rail is the within 4 deg. of each other. The ZZ4 heads being angled more toward the floor. Read beneficial to header fittment. Just thought these were some good facts. Hope it helps.

chocs
09-14-2010, 09:43:21 PM
well i just seen the post ben busy now i did have to take a rubber hammer to the floor but its not to bad as low as its going to sit no one will see it .thats y i asked how much room do u think well need?http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx73/ateslahead/DSCF3281.jpgalso its not hitten the frame at any point.

Z20AINT
09-14-2010, 11:21:03 PM
Looks nice Chocs. I thought about "persuading" the floor but I am worried about the collectors hitting the floor pan when the engine torques. I don't want to hear any rattles. Been there done that. YUK!

BakkerudaZ28
09-14-2010, 11:28:52 PM
Hey Man I feel yer pain ! I have a big block with raised runner Pro Topline heads. I tried everything !
I finally bit the bullet and went for a custom set, I used stainlessheaders.com , they send you this mock up kit and you erect it yourself, then you send them the mocked up set and they build the set out of stainless. Mine are stepped from 2 inch up to 2 1/8 and have V band clamps for the collectors (no gaskets ) (added ground clearence) and O2 bungs in each collector. I can remove both sides in 20 mins with the starter in place !
When I built my mock up set I had the nose off of the car , and it took a lot of time, when it was finished they fit awsome !!! P.S. i think there in Minnesota I spoke with Chris. 1 800 290 3920 good luck man !

Z20AINT
09-15-2010, 08:52:09 AM
Neat Link! Nice to have the option!!

REARSPROCKET
09-16-2010, 08:12:37 AM
Did you try and fit the Headman 65104s ?

Z20AINT
09-16-2010, 08:41:20 AM
I tried the 66104's Ceramic Coated version. Number 7 tube hits the lower control arm pocket. If the pipe could be moved (plenty of room) 1 inch either way I would have been fine. I'm not sure what the deal is with our cars but I think many header manufacturers made templates and or jigs off of older cars with sagging mounts.

QUOTE=REARSPROCKET]Did you try and fit the Headman 65104s ?[/QUOTE]

my24ktrat
09-16-2010, 12:40:18 PM
...You must have something bent/misaligned etc. in your car , cause' I've used both the hedman headers, flowtechs, AND the old Blackjack AK 5000's with NO issues with clearance/floorboards ,using GM FB alum. heads, GM vortec bowties, and older style vortecs,don't know what to tell you , I've never had an issue in the past 25 years with headers, DC:bowtie:

Z20AINT
09-16-2010, 01:29:07 PM
I sure read alot of posts where people are modifying their floor pans on this board. I can't be the only one with these issues. Just sayin.

...You must have something bent/misaligned etc. in your car , cause' I've used both the hedman headers, flowtechs, AND the old Blackjack AK 5000's with NO issues with clearance/floorboards ,using GM FB alum. heads, GM vortec bowties, and older style vortecs,don't know what to tell you , I've never had an issue in the past 25 years with headers, DC:bowtie:

Z20AINT
09-19-2010, 01:54:22 PM
Well I found a set of 1 5/8" to 1 /3/4" stepped Dynatech headers that are listed to fit this application (Raised D-Ports, 4-speed, Angle Plugs, etc). Got'em coming. We'll see. I'll post results.

Z20AINT
09-22-2010, 10:14:30 PM
Got the Dynatech headers PN (DTC-40190920125C at Summit) today and all I can say is WOW!! For $400 these are the nicest set of all headers I have ever seen. The fit is Perfect and I mean perfect. They bolt in, hit nothing (including angle plugs) and just plain fit. They even have awesome ground clearance. These headers make the other 8 sets I tried look like a joke. Especially that stupid triangle flange. I would recommend these headers to anyone. The only hiccup I had was getting a set of smaller gaskets because the ones included in the kit are obviously for a 1 3/4" to 1 7/8" header set or a way larger exhaust port than my heads. Either way it was a minor thing. I just picked up a set of Mr. Gasket square port gaskets that were 1.45" x 1.55" and they fit the header absolultely perfect. Did I say these headers ROCK!!!!:) :) :)

MadMike
09-19-2013, 12:03:37 AM
Well well well. Guess who's having problems again, and where Google sent me.

I fired up my car today for a fair amount of time and finally got to hear a really bad exhaust leak. My driver side header is "too low" and leave a teeny-tiny amount of the top of the exhaust port above the header flange unshrouded. enough to blow out the gasket.

So, I need to get/make a gasket fit (I was using MrG 5901 - which is blown out/disintegrated from 5 minutes of run time). Or I need to slot my header bolt holes so I can help coax the header up a tad to cover the port. Of course, there's no way to remove these things unless I pull my engine out for the 14th time. So I gotta come up with the least painful solution.

The suggestion was to use a copper gasket. But after further examination, it would appear these headers aren't conforming ideally to the "D" shape of the exhaust port.

The headers are hooker super comp, 1.75" primarys. Huge. So you'd figure that big hole would completely cover that tiny "D". But... NOT FOR ME...

Any ideas?

black_aerocoupe
09-19-2013, 12:27:24 PM
Funny you bump this. I have a customer car to figure out headers for; the ported d-port heads are one reason keeping options few. I definitely feel the first post's sentiment.

delaware67
09-19-2013, 02:26:00 PM
I looked at Summit for the Dynatech's you got. They say none in stock and they are like $600. Are yours the ball and socket type collector? I am running cheap Jegs brand headers and looking to swap them out, broke in the motor when new with them and ruined the coating.

Z20AINT
09-19-2013, 04:34:25 PM
Ball and socket, yes. I ordered mine years ago so the price increase does not suprise me. Just order them direct from Dynatech.

I looked at Summit for the Dynatech's you got. They say none in stock and they are like $600. Are yours the ball and socket type collector? I am running cheap Jegs brand headers and looking to swap them out, broke in the motor when new with them and ruined the coating.