We were discussing this on another thread and a member here is being told by his buddy that he can build a 400hp 350 sbc for just 2 grand and has done so many times, the new member wants to buy a new motor for his camaro. My point is that’s cutting it close for a budget and it has no warrantee.... So the question is can you build a reliable long mileage 350 sbc that will pull 400hp for 2 thousand dollars ????

ok i changed the limits.....
couple rules for doing this though are:
no comp over 11:1
no RPM over 7000
no nitrous, blower, or turbo
no detonation, so use conservative timing.

I say no way ray....:bowtie:

Why the rules? Do you think that a machinist would have an advantage over someone who has to pay for the work? I have a low mileage 350 roller longblock in my garage that I paid $120 for. I can easily make a 400 hp motor out of it for less than 2 grand.

good idea for the thread. I'm the member in question by the way. My motor has just over $100,000 miles on it, but is in decent condition for the mileage.
My friend and his dad are by no means 100% professional engine builders, but have a hobby of working on chevy's and have built them for others as well, my brother included. He beats the hell out of his cars and says they hold up just fine.

I didn't believe him either at first, it seems too expensive for the parts alone. But he builds these by using many of the stock parts on the motor, reworked, buys many used parts, and then says the main thing that you need to buy new is the cam.


So lets get the engine builders in here. How long have you guys gotten your 350's to last on a partial rebuild?

Id say easy but Im wondering why only 10:1? thats well below the limits of 93octane, no need for conservative timing at that level either. the curve needs to match the rest of the combo but there wont be a need to limit total based on detonation.

couple rules for doing this though are:
no comp over 10:1couple rules for doing this though are:
no comp over 10:1
no RPM over 6000
no nitrous, blower, or turbo
no detonation, so use conservative timing.


no comp over 10:1 : this would probably be the most limiting factor. Not impossible to work around though.

no RPM over 6000: why the low rpm limit? Even a bone stock 350 (or most SBCs) can safely achieve 7000 rpms). I say raise the limit to 7000 to 7500 rpms.

no nitrous, blower, or turbo: agreed.

no detonation, so use conservative timing: total timing usually doesn't affect total hp that much so that's a non-issue.

Because you didn't say I couldn't (like the local judge that limited pistol permits from CCW to "hunting & target shooting only"), first thing I'd do is throw a 383 stroker kit into it. hypereutectic pistons with reconned rods. Northen Autoparts has a kit for around $500 to $600.

HEADS: THEE most important part to the engine after a good rotating assembly. I'd call the cylinder head manufacturers to get their best recommendations. $800 to $1000.

Cam: Isky or Crower. I'd call them, tell them what we had, and let THEM tell me what cam to put in. Because of the $2000 limit, it'd be a solid lifter mechanical cam. Cam kit $250.

I think I'd come close to 400 hp and the $2000 budget.

BUT, things that KILL a budget are the "little" parts that you don't think about: intake, headers, carburetor, fasteners (head, intake, timing chain cover, crank, cam, oil pan bolts), timing chain, frost plugs, spark plugs, spark plug wires, cap, rotor, water pump, timing chain. Gaskets (GOOD gaskets are around $100). Machine work would be a HUGE expense (cleaning the block, new cam bearings + installation of them, having the main cap alignment checked and if "off", having it align bored).

We were discussing this on another thread and a member here is being told by his buddy that he can build a 400hp 350 sbc for just 2 grand and has done so many times, the new member wants to buy a new motor for his camaro. My point is that’s cutting it close for a budget and it has no warrantee.... So the question is can you build a reliable long mileage 350 sbc that will pull 400hp for 2 thousand dollars ????

couple rules for doing this though are:
no comp over 10:1
no RPM over 6000
no nitrous, blower, or turbo
no detonation, so use conservative timing.

I say no way ray....:bowtie:


I have well under 1K into my 350 vortec engine and that inc. all the bolt ons.

Id say easy but Im wondering why only 10:1? thats well below the limits of 93octane, no need for conservative timing at that level either. the curve needs to match the rest of the combo but there wont be a need to limit total based on detonation.
10:1 compression will work fine with aluminum heads and 93 octane. Which will most definitely raise the price to well over $2000, unless he has a set laying around. Iron heads won't like 10:1 compression with a full mechanical advance of 36* or 38* with 93 octane. A really big cam will help lower the static compression and help a little, but he'd still be on the edge of detonation all the time. And that larger cam with definitely raise the max RPM well over 6000 RPM.

You could build a 9.0:1 to 9.5:1 compression 383 using Hypereutectic Pistons with a well machined short block with a cam in the 220/228 dur. @ .050 .465"/.480 lift with a 110 or so LSA range using Vortec heads and make an honest 325/350 HP, with way more torque then a 350 will give you, well over 400 FT. LBS of torque if you can razor tune it.

Scat Stroker crank $190
Scat stroker rods $240
Hypereutectic Pistons $200 to $300 depending on which ones you go with.
A factory good condition SBC 400 harmonic balancer and flex plate unless you go internally balanced which will cost more. You'd have to look at Summit, Jegs, Competition Product ect. for accurate prices on that.
Balance rotating assembly $100 to $180 in my area.

In my opinion, there is no sense in putting brand new parts into a block that hasn't been machined correctly. It might work for a while but you're not going to get the longevity out of it like you would if the block was machined right to begin with. And for the price of entry level replacement cranks and rods being made today that don't cost much more then having you old parts turned, you be better off buying the newer, stronger parts.

Just my $.02.

10:1 compression will work fine with aluminum heads and 93 octane. . Iron heads won't like 10:1 compression with a full mechanical advance of 36* or 38* with 93 octane. .


I never really belived the aluminum/iron argument, if anything its the design of the head and most newer heads are aluminum being compared to older iron designs. I have run close to 12:1 with pump gas on iron heads & full timing for years with no problems (not reccomending it! dont jump on me :shy: ) I dont want to make it sound cheap or easy everything in the car has to match to go that high but 10.5-11.1 shouldnt be a problem. It would be better if we new the rest of the combo gear/weight/converter what parts he may already have for the engine.

quote: "good idea for the thread. I'm the member in question by the way. My motor has just over $100,000 miles on it, but is in decent condition for the mileage."

At a dollar-per-mile so far, $2k would be a bargain! ;)

just kidding... :crazy:

To me, the whole issue revolves around machining costs; so yes, a machinist would have a great advantage. But the parts for such a build are certainly available for under $2k if you are any good at all at wheelin' 'n dealin' and scrounging 'n swappin'.

There are some great deals at competitionproducts

My aluminum, fully assembled with top quality parts, brand new ProComp 210cc heads cost $650 for the pair. Those and the right cam is your 400hp right there. That leaves $1350 for a flat top shortblock, used intake, and used carb. You don't need forged pistons, fancy rods, or a forged crank, but you can certainly find bargains on such things if you look.

The small stuff can add up quickly: cam, lifters, rockers, pushrods, gaskets, valve covers, oil pump, bearings, oil pan, timing set, etc. None of which are particularly expensive for a street motor, but there are just a lot of such things to buy.

Necessary machine work is always the largest variable: How good is the block and crank to begin with? Then you get to "How complete is complete?" and what do you already have? headers? distributor? water pump? motor mounts?

I think you need to get real specific on how much is "400hp motor-for-$2k" and how much is ancilliary stuff.

We were discussing this on another thread and a member here is being told by his buddy that he can build a 400hp 350 sbc for just 2 grand and has done so many times
Depends on what you start out with, your standards of work, and how much stuff you have laying around to use. Theres so much room for variation, its hardly worth debating.

Start out with nothing, or a block that needs everything machined, no you can't.

Start with a low mileage roller engine that just needs a few bolt ons that you have hanging on the wall anyway, of course you can.

Start with a worn out pos engine, your only standard of work is it shouldn't have blue exhaust, and you're just going to build a grenade to flog on someone who doesn't know any better, sure you can.

I have run close to 12:1 with pump gas on iron heads & full timing for years with no problems
I'm not jumping on you, but I can't believe for one minute that someone could run close to 12.0:1 with 36* or 38* timing with iron heads (or even aluminum heads for that matter) on pump gas as in 93 octane!

I ran 10.5:1 compression on my last 406. I ran a pretty good size Crane solid cam that help bleed off some of the cylinder pressure, had a .045" quench area. Ran Dart Sportsman II heads. The car ran between 180* and 190* and I could not run my timing at 36* on Sunoco Ultra 94 octane fuel. I had to mix it with 110 octane Cam2 in order to run my timing all the way up.

I called Dart a few weeks ago. Was thinking of maybe going with better heads in a year or so. The tech I talked to said there isn't any difference between their Iron Eagle Platinum head and Pro 1 Platinum heads other then then one is iron and one is aluminum. He told me 10.0:1 could be doable with the right cam, quench area and a very effective cooling system with iron heads, but recommended staying under that, closer to 9.75:1 or so. He said the aluminum heads would let me run 11.2:1 or so before I had to start taking timing out of it. Just my $.02! :bowtie:

My goal is 400 hp and here's my current shopping list:

New Comp cams Xtreme Energy Retrofit cam and lifter kit $956
Used L31 Vortec heads $200-$300
New Federal mogul/sealed power rebuild kit from Summit $219
New Edelbrock RPM air-gap intake $255.95

The quote from my local machine shop for rebore w/ torqueplate, decking, block cleaning, crank machining, and cam bearing installation is $420

Using my stock Q-jet, this totals around $2150. Throw in the cost of headers and exhaust and it gets way beyond this however.

So 2500 is about A CONSERVATIVE EST. with a good used 350 to start with ? Sounds like machine costs are a big variable also..

Why not save yourself $200 right off the bat and forget the "brand new Eddy intake".

My goodness, if there is one thing that is plentiful and cheap in the used aftermarket -- and it has no moving parts to be worn out -- it is aluminum intake manifolds capable of supporting 400 hp. Fifty bucks or less will get you a good intake if you look around a little. I have an old school Wiend dual plane knockoff of the early Z/28 factory intakes you can have for $25 and the ride.

Like Grandma always said: "Squeeeeeze those pennies 'till that old Indian hollers!" (These days it would be until Old Abe hollers, but you get the idea.)

Used L31 Vortec heads $200-$300


Don't forget the cost of crack checking, and grinding the valves and seats-at least another $250.

.......some of the guys have suggested some good parts to achieve the goal. HOWEVER, don't think that you HAVE to use brand new hardware. For instance, used heads needing minimal work, used intake and carb, used headers in usable condition, etc.... The only thing I'd make sure was new would be all the bearings, pistons & rings, cam & lifters, pushrods and oil pump.....of course gaskets and seals.

RIGHT NOW is the time to shop for bargains from gearheads that are low on finances. There are some ridiculously good deals out there on quality parts. I say the 400 HP goal can EASILY be met......for less than $2K. You just need to be smart about where/when to spend your money.

.......some of the guys have suggested some good parts to achieve the goal. HOWEVER, don't think that you HAVE to use brand new hardware. For instance, used heads needing minimal work, used intake and carb, used headers in usable condition, etc.... The only thing I'd make sure was new would be all the bearings, pistons & rings, cam & lifters, pushrods and oil pump.....of course gaskets and seals.

RIGHT NOW is the time to shop for bargains from gearheads that are low on finances. There are some ridiculously good deals out there on quality parts. I say the 400 HP goal can EASILY be met......for less than $2K. You just need to be smart about where/when to spend your money.

agree 100% money someone else spent is the best money you can spend. On a local board I see dart headed 406's every now and then for $1,500 thats a heck of a start. But you can find heads/intakes all day long at steals right now.

Another Thing That Affects This Is Where You Are In The Us, Engine Rebuilds ,machine Work And Parts Are More Expensive In Different Parts Of The Country. Ive Seen This Reading This Forum. But It Looks Like 400 Hp For 2 Grand Is Not A Problem, I Stand Corrected.

They need to be more clear about "building" a 400HP 350 for $2000 or less.

Yes, if you have an existing motor and spend your money wisely to rebuild what you have. You could use a stock bottom end and go from there.

Not happening by starting from scratch. Buying a block, getting it cleaned, magnafluxed, bored, crank, bearings (cam and crank), pistons, rings, rods, oil pump, machine work, cam, lifters, assembled heads, carb, manifold, distributor, plugs and wires, air cleaner and element, water pump. And there is always other parts along with assembly lube, gaskets, bolts etc. Maybe if you bought all cheap parts you could make 300HP.

I'm not jumping on you, but I can't believe for one minute that someone could run close to 12.0:1 with 36* or 38* timing with iron heads (or even aluminum heads for that matter) on pump gas as in 93 octane!

I ran 10.5:1 compression on my last 406. I ran a pretty good size Crane solid cam that help bleed off some of the cylinder pressure, had a .045" quench area. Ran Dart Sportsman II heads. The car ran between 180* and 190* and I could not run my timing at 36* on Sunoco Ultra 94 octane fuel. I had to mix it with 110 octane Cam2 in order to run my timing all the way up.

I called Dart a few weeks ago. Was thinking of maybe going with better heads in a year or so. The tech I talked to said there isn't any difference between their Iron Eagle Platinum head and Pro 1 Platinum heads other then then one is iron and one is aluminum. He told me 10.0:1 could be doable with the right cam, quench area and a very effective cooling system with iron heads, but recommended staying under that, closer to 9.75:1 or so. He said the aluminum heads would let me run 11.2:1 or so before I had to start taking timing out of it. Just my $.02! :bowtie:


i'm running 11.1:1 in my 350 with #186 cyl heads and a solid flat tappet cam with 257/269 @.050 493/512 lift and timing is 22 initial/38 total with pump gas 91 octane

My motor will be real close
I bought a Power pack headed 350 for $300
It has hypos and is sitting on around 10.5 CR
It runs good
Im adding a 292 cam and lifters $180
My tunnel ram and carters (i already had it, but the set up cost me $150, i traded an old holley for the rebuild of the carters)
Ill toss on a gear drive just for kicks $150
So im looking at around $1000 with gaskets fuel line and other BS stuff
I dont know if it will be over 400 hp or not but ill have fun finding out.

That sounds like a good old school LT-1 engine, muscl car.

A big factor is how much you can do yourself and how much you already have. Head work can be expensive real quick, but if you can do it yourself, is just time. Grinding valves and seats is incredibly easy...and if there's a local community college changes are they have the machine to do it. If you already have the block 2k with 400 hp is pretty easy. Also, u dont mention what block you would have to use. Out here in cali, i regularly see ls1 and lt1s on CL for 500 bucks to 800 bucks, and for either of those motors, uppin to 400 hp is just simple bolt ons, exhuast, retunin etc. at most a more aggressive cam.

Another Thing That Affects This Is Where You Are In The Us, Engine Rebuilds ,machine Work And Parts Are More Expensive In Different Parts Of The Country. Ive Seen This Reading This Forum. But It Looks Like 400 Hp For 2 Grand Is Not A Problem, I Stand Corrected.

I think everything cost more in NY, lol Union workers & higher cost of living! Machinist probrably makes twice what they would here in NC?

i'm running 11.1:1 in my 350 with #186 cyl heads and a solid flat tappet cam with 257/269 @.050 493/512 lift and timing is 22 initial/38 total with pump gas 91 octane
You're running a really big cam that will help bleed off cylinder pressure lowering you dynamic compression ratio which will help you a little. I couldn't run 36* full timing with 10.5:1 with Dart Sportsman II heads (64 cc heart shaped combustion chambers...better then stock) on 94 octane fuel with my operating temp. 180* to 190* with a .045" quench area.

Just for the heck of it, what are your following measurements? Also what is your quench area?

Cylinder Head Volume (cc) Combustion Chamber size.
Piston Head Volume (cc) Dish or Dome.
Gasket Thickness (in.)
Gasket Bore (in.)
Cylinder Bore Diameter (in.)
Deck Clearance (in.) Note: Neg. nubmer above deck, Pos. number below deck
Stroke (in.)
Rod Length (in.)
Intake Closing Point (degrees)ABDC @ 0.050 lift plus 15 degrees

These measurements will give you your true static and dynamic compression ratio's.

Ethanol allows you to run higher compression to, so I've heard/read. Most of the fuel in our area has 10% ethanol in it now. They're talking about increasing it to 15% ethanol. Maybe the fuel you're using has more ethanol then ours.

E85 is supposed to work really well with high compression engines, so I've read. There is only one place that sells/sold E85 in our area that I know of and it's 30 miles away from me. Honestly, I haven't looked for places that sell it though. I guess you have to change seals and gaskets in your fuel system in order to use it. I have no idea what has to be done to "tune" for E85. If it becomes more available, that could help us hotroders out.

Maybe other here have some good experience with ethanol mixed and E85 fuels that could chime in. :bowtie:

You're running a really big cam that will help bleed off cylinder pressure lowering you dynamic compression ratio which will help you a little. I couldn't run 36* full timing with 10.5:1 with Dart Sportsman II heads (64 cc heart shaped combustion chambers...better then stock) on 94 octane fuel with my operating temp. 180* to 190* with a .045" quench area.

Just for the heck of it, what are your following measurements? Also what is your quench area?

Cylinder Head Volume (cc) Combustion Chamber size.
Piston Head Volume (cc) Dish or Dome.
Gasket Thickness (in.)
Gasket Bore (in.)
Cylinder Bore Diameter (in.)
Deck Clearance (in.) Note: Neg. nubmer above deck, Pos. number below deck
Stroke (in.)
Rod Length (in.)
Intake Closing Point (degrees)ABDC @ 0.050 lift plus 15 degrees

These measurements will give you your true static and dynamic compression ratio's.

basically the motor is just a 1970 LT1 350 factory rated at 365hp running 11.1:1 comp domed pistons ,#186 cyl heads /62cc chambers with bowl and port work .the cam is a GM perf cam from the late 60's called the GM#140 cam or 1rst gen off-road design with 257/269@ .050 493/512 lift, 112 LSA 4200-7500rpm

the motor is a copy of a baldwin motion Z/30 phaseIII 425hp motor that joel used in his super vega and sbc powered camaro

Just for the heck of it, what are your following measurements? Also what is your quench area?

Cylinder Head Volume (cc) Combustion Chamber size.
Piston Head Volume (cc) Dish or Dome.
Gasket Thickness (in.)
Gasket Bore (in.)
Cylinder Bore Diameter (in.)
Deck Clearance (in.) Note: Neg. nubmer above deck, Pos. number below deck
Stroke (in.)
Rod Length (in.)
Intake Closing Point (degrees)ABDC @ 0.050 lift plus 15 degrees

These measurements will give you your true static and dynamic compression ratio's.

62cc
3cc dish
.041
4.200
4.165
+.006
3.75"
6"

cam specs:
http://www.atlanticspeed.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=1395&IDCategory=27#details

62cc
1.5cc dome
.015 gasket
4.100
4.030
.020
3.48
5.7

cam specs:
http://competitioncams.carshopinc.com/product_info.php/products_id/14187/12-609-5

62cc
3cc dish
.041
4.200
4.165
+.006
3.75"
6"

cam specs:
http://www.atlanticspeed.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=1395&IDCategory=27#details
12.071:1 static compression ratio, 7.327:1 dynamic effective compression ratio.

62cc
1.5cc dome
.015 gasket
4.100
4.030
.020
3.48
5.7

cam specs:
http://competitioncams.carshopinc.com/product_info.php/products_id/14187/12-609-5
11.712:1 static compression ratio, 7.834:1 dynamic effective compression ratio.

Your dynamic effective compression ratio's are fairly low. I still find it hard to believe you are running pump gas meaning 93 to 94 octane without either running less timing and/or adding an octane booster of some sort.

I try to find the specs for the cam I ran in my 10.5:1 motor. It was a Crane solid cam.

I actually ran another with close to 9:1 dynamic with Iron heads for years but dont remember all the specs.

My 406 With World Iron Heads And 10.5-1 Will Not Run On 93 Oct Either No Way, Just Barley Ran On 94, Now I Ix 5 Gal Aviation Fuel To 10 Gal Of 93.

My 406 had 10.56:1 static and 8.773:1 dynamic compression ratio's with the first Crane soild cam I ran in it. I put a larger Crane solid cam in it which lowered the dynamic compression ratio to 8.462:1. If I ran it on Sunoco Ultra 94 I had to turn my timing down to 30*, to run 36* timing I had to mix Sunoco Ultra 94 with 110 octane Cam2 50/50.

I'm not jumping on you, but I can't believe for one minute that someone could run close to 12.0:1 with 36* or 38* timing with iron heads (or even aluminum heads for that matter) on pump gas as in 93 octane!

I ran 10.5:1 compression on my last 406. I ran a pretty good size Crane solid cam that help bleed off some of the cylinder pressure, had a .045" quench area. Ran Dart Sportsman II heads. The car ran between 180* and 190* and I could not run my timing at 36* on Sunoco Ultra 94 octane fuel. I had to mix it with 110 octane Cam2 in order to run my timing all the way up.

I called Dart a few weeks ago. Was thinking of maybe going with better heads in a year or so. The tech I talked to said there isn't any difference between their Iron Eagle Platinum head and Pro 1 Platinum heads other then then one is iron and one is aluminum. He told me 10.0:1 could be doable with the right cam, quench area and a very effective cooling system with iron heads, but recommended staying under that, closer to 9.75:1 or so. He said the aluminum heads would let me run 11.2:1 or so before I had to start taking timing out of it. Just my $.02! :bowtie:
I am doing it with no problems 11.7-1 compression iron heads 38 degrees timing runs like a raped ape 355 with domed pistons

im running a stock bore 350 with flat tops and 64cc head. .020 head gasket and a solid roller and its right at 10.0 cr... deck height is 9.030 stock block yet.

made 448.8 hp at 6600 on 93 pump gas from bp

Hot rod did a budget build and got 391hp for $2600 starting from scratch I believe. http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_0905_small_block_chevy_build/index.html

Why overthink it?

http://www.competitionproducts.com/Edelbrock-Top-End-Power-Package-Kit-Chev-350-410-HP/productinfo/EDE2098/ $$$1714.87

All gearheads have that boat anchor 350 under the bench or behind the garage. Pull that bad boy out, disassemble and clean up the parts, spend another 125.00 bucks on ARP bolts for the mains/heads, and another 125.00 for new rings/bearings/gaskets kit.

Puts you right at 410hp for $$$1,964


Save the other 36 bucks to restock the beer fridge...or an oil pump. Hehe.

Ethanol allows you to run higher compression to, so I've heard/read. Most of the fuel in our area has 10% ethanol in it now. They're talking about increasing it to 15% ethanol. Maybe the fuel you're using has more ethanol then ours.

E85 is supposed to work really well with high compression engines, so I've read. There is only one place that sells/sold E85 in our area that I know of and it's 30 miles away from me. Honestly, I haven't looked for places that sell it though. I guess you have to change seals and gaskets in your fuel system in order to use it. I have no idea what has to be done to "tune" for E85. If it becomes more available, that could help us hotroders out.

Maybe other here have some good experience with ethanol mixed and E85 fuels that could chime in. :bowtie:


check this place out.

http://e85forum.com/topic-1-0-50.html

This one too. Check out Drag chevette & Eric68 They both build carbs.
http://www.e85performance.net/forums/index.php

Here is eric68's web site.
http://www.horsepowerinnovations.com/index.html

Check out the wheel stand video of his car.
http://www.horsepowerinnovations.com/gallery.html

Your dynamic effective compression ratio's are fairly low. I still find it hard to believe you are running pump gas meaning 93 to 94 octane without either running less timing and/or adding an octane booster of some sort.

I try to find the specs for the cam I ran in my 10.5:1 motor. It was a Crane solid cam.

If you do a search for compression and altituted above sea level you will find
some interesting stuff (I can't seem to find it.) ANy way there was a thread
about it that basicly said the higher altitude your at the more compression you can get away with on pump gas.

Why overthink it?

http://www.competitionproducts.com/Edelbrock-Top-End-Power-Package-Kit-Chev-350-410-HP/productinfo/EDE2098/ $$$1714.87

All gearheads have that boat anchor 350 under the bench or behind the garage. Pull that bad boy out, disassemble and clean up the parts, spend another 125.00 bucks on ARP bolts for the mains/heads, and another 125.00 for new rings/bearings/gaskets kit.

Puts you right at 410hp for $$$1,964


Save the other 36 bucks to restock the beer fridge...or an oil pump. Hehe.
Sure... I've got a boat anchor (supposedly has 4-bolt mains, too) but like most it's been sitting for over 20 years. It would need at least a clean, magnaflux (block, crank, rods), hone or bore (but now we're into pistons), and 10/10 crank grind if you're lucky. I'd rather have a bullet proof 300-350 hp in a streetable range than build a $2000 grenade.
Could you do it and get lucky, sure. Could you do it and put it in a 15k mile per year dd--maybe if you drive like grandma and just want to be able to say the motor makes 400hp...
Best options here were already listed: scrounge, scrounge, scrounge.