Alright I'll get straight to the point, me and my buddy built a 355 a few months ago and it's having a strange timing problem. The thing won't run unless it has over 40* initial timing and it really likes around 78* inital. Totally ridiculous I know. We have checked everything we could possibly think of and checked it again. The car has no problem starting and runs fairly good but seems to be lacking power. We need help!

The ring on the balancer has not slipped.
The timing tab is correct.
The cam has been degreed.
The engine has good compression.
The timing light has been checked.

Engine specs;
bored .030 over
Around 10:1 compression
Edlebrock E-Street heads
Summit headers
Edlebrock 600 cfm carb
Edlebrock Performer intake
Lunati 60103lk;
Duration at .050 227 in/233 ex
Advertised duration 268 in/276 ex
Lift 0.489 in/0.504 ex

Double check your spark plug wires. Sounds like they're out of order and while you think you're reading off the #1 cylinder, you may be reading off #8, #4, #3, #6, #5, #7 or #2.

I. E. the #8 wire may be going to the #1 cylinder, or the #4, etc.

Seriously, I've seen it done.

Clockwise looking down at the cap.
18436572

Don't overlook the obvious. Happens to me all too often. ;)

Double check your spark plug wires. Sounds like they're out of order and while you think you're reading off the #1 cylinder, you may be reading off #8, #4, #3, #6, #5, #7 or #2.

I. E. the #8 wire may be going to the #1 cylinder, or the #4, etc.

Seriously, I've seen it done.

Clockwise looking down at the cap.
18436572

Don't overlook the obvious. Happens to me all too often. ;)


+1

78*, yeah, there is no way your on plug 1. Very common, easy mistake. Check plug wires.

We're just getting it back together from degreeing the cam(it was right on), so we'll double check when it's at that point.
Thanks

Ok we got it back together and the same damn thing. Double and triple checked wires, all is good. Runs the best at 78* advance at idle. Checked the timing on my car I just bought with a 355 of about the same build and guess what, same deal. And yes we are reading off the # 1 cylinder. Both cars run good with no detonating.
I guess we should test the timing light again...

yeah if you are past 45 degrees mechanical advance you are jumping towers in the cap... so there is no way you have 78 degrees mechanical advance at idle

What they're saying is to make sure the rotor is actually pointing at Number 1 when Number 1 piston is at the top of it's compression stroke. It sounds like you have the distributor a tooth or two off.

Remove your valve cover on the driver's side, remove your distributor cap, then slowly turn/bump the motor over until you see the #1 intake rocker cycle. Continue to turn the motor slowly in the direction of rotation until the front timing marks line up. (Both #1 rockers should be at rest now.) The rotor should be pointing at the number 1 distributor terminal at this point. If it is not, you need to make it do so, and will probably need to remove the distributor and turn the oil pump shaft a little bit with a long screwdriver before reinstalling it. Remember, the curved gear teeth will rotate your distributor as it seats. Allow for that.

In the end, the rotor must point at the Number 1 distributor terminal when the timing marks are lined up. It will run at that point. You can adjust the advance after it is running.

Pay attention to the direction of rotation of both the engine and the distributor rotor. The next cylinder the rotor must point to is #8, then 4,3,6,5,7,2 as stated earlier. Install the wires accordingly.

Alright I'll get straight to the point, me and my buddy built a 355 a few months ago and it's having a strange timing problem. The thing won't run unless it has over 40* initial timing and it really likes around 78* inital.


What spark plugs are you running? Using the wrong reach plugs (too short) will cause exactly what you are explaning to happen.

How did you determine the 78* mark?

Try a different timing light

What they're saying is to make sure the rotor is actually pointing at Number 1 when Number 1 piston is at the top of it's compression stroke. It sounds like you have the distributor a tooth or two off.

Remove your valve cover on the driver's side, remove your distributor cap, then slowly turn/bump the motor over until you see the #1 intake rocker cycle. Continue to turn the motor slowly in the direction of rotation until the front timing marks line up. (Both #1 rockers should be at rest now.) The rotor should be pointing at the number 1 distributor terminal at this point. If it is not, you need to make it do so, and will probably need to remove the distributor and turn the oil pump shaft a little bit with a long screwdriver before reinstalling it. Remember, the curved gear teeth will rotate your distributor as it seats. Allow for that.

In the end, the rotor must point at the Number 1 distributor terminal when the timing marks are lined up. It will run at that point. You can adjust the advance after it is running.

Pay attention to the direction of rotation of both the engine and the distributor rotor. The next cylinder the rotor must point to is #8, then 4,3,6,5,7,2 as stated earlier. Install the wires accordingly.

Did that at first but the car would barely run so had to advance it, ran better but still crappy. After advancing it as far as we could it still wanted more timing so we had to move it a tooth to get more advance timing. We have it running the best it has been now with 78* at 1000 rpm.

I have rebuilt a few stock engines and installed half a dozen distributers and never had this kind of problem.

What spark plugs are you running? Using the wrong reach plugs (too short) will cause exactly what you are explaning to happen.

The ones that edlebrock recomended for their heads.

How did you determine the 78* mark?

Try a different timing light

Using the fancy digital adjustable timing light that goes to 90*

Tried a regular timing light and the mark on the balancer is on the opposite side of the timing mark.

It really makes no sense to me it's even running with it advanced as far as it is. What else doesn't make sense is that the car I just bought had that much advance and won't run worth a crap with less.

Like 1977 TPI Camaro said it would be sparking on a different terminal...

Something is way out of wack. Either your timing light, the balancer/tab or what you think is #1 on the cap, #1 wire,or #1cylinder.

But if you can make it run and have some reference point, be it 0* or 78*, its all good. Just don't tell anyone.

Are you sure you are connected to the front plug on the Drivers side?
Cylinder #2 fires 90* before cylinder #1.
The average sbc idles fine @ 12* before TDC
If you are on the Front spark plug on the Passenger side, that would explain the 78 degrees (90-12=78)

Unless there is some spark jump between the HEI #1 and #2 terminals (inside or out of the cap) or jumping between wires, but I doubt that would be consistant on 2 cars.

A second timing light might not be a bad idea.

What timing gear set did you use? I'm wondering if maybe you got a mis-marked set..? i believe you did say the cam was degreed when installed?

It is interesting about the 78* magic number since that would be 12* off from the next cylinder, which in turn would be about right for the engine to run ok.

Forgetting the distributor for the moment, does your #1 intake rocker open and then close just prior to the timing marks coming into alignment?

Is the #8 intake rocking?

If yes to both, then where exactly, at 0* TDC for #1 on the timing marks, is the rotor pointing?

Are you sure you are connected to the front plug on the Drivers side?
Cylinder #2 fires 90* before cylinder #1.
The average sbc idles fine @ 12* before TDC
If you are on the Front spark plug on the Passenger side, that would explain the 78 degrees (90-12=78)

Unless there is some spark jump between the HEI #1 and #2 terminals (inside or out of the cap) or jumping between wires, but I doubt that would be consistant on 2 cars.

A second timing light might not be a bad idea.
Yep reading off the Driver front plug.

What timing gear set did you use? I'm wondering if maybe you got a mis-marked set..? i believe you did say the cam was degreed when installed?

It is interesting about the 78* magic number since that would be 12* off from the next cylinder, which in turn would be about right for the engine to run ok.

Forgetting the distributor for the moment, does your #1 intake rocker open and then close just prior to the timing marks coming into alignment?

Is the #8 intake rocking?

If yes to both, then where exactly, at 0* TDC for #1 on the timing marks, is the rotor pointing?

I believe it was a summit double roller in my buds car and a gear drive in mine and yes his cam was degreed.

Indeed...

As for the #1 Intake rocker yes, haven't looked at the #8.
At TDC the rotor is facing towards the drivers side front, lined up perfectly with the number 1 terminal on the cap. Until we had to advance the crap out of it that is...

Then I'm stumped.

There is one last little possibility, but I doubt it is the problem:

Back in the late 60's, the high-performance 8" balancers used on Corvette and Z/28 motors underwent a change in the position of the timing mark in relation to the keyway. The 69 DZ302 balancers (7708 I think) are highly sought by restorers, and though there are identical-appearing earlier balancers, the timing mark is different. It used to be in line with the keyway, but in '69 was moved several degrees.

Unless your buddy used a very old damper, or unless he used a damper that has shifted or was manufactured incorrectly (and there are tons of cheap balancers on the market anymore), none of this is likely to be applicable, unfortunately.

When his cam was degreed, the balancer and timing tab should have been confirmed and marked for true TDC. Do you know if they were?

I should add that it is always important on DZ302 and similar time period motors to use the correct timing cover with integral tab with whatever damper you use. That would still hold true, though I think most tabs are separate bolt-on items since the early 70's. It is even more critical to confirm TDC when using adjustable pointers and fully degreed dampers. The fact that you know you are 78* advanced tends to indicate a fully degreed balancer?

Even back in 69, the timing mark was only moved a few degrees (8 or 10?); not 60 or 70.

Then I'm stumped.

There is one last little possibility, but I doubt it is the problem:

Back in the late 60's, the high-performance 8" balancers used on Corvette and Z/28 motors underwent a change in the position of the timing mark in relation to the keyway. The 69 DZ302 balancers (7708 I think) are highly sought by restorers, and though there are identical-appearing earlier balancers, the timing mark is different. It used to be in line with the keyway, but in '69 was moved several degrees.

Unless your buddy used a very old damper, or unless he used a damper that has shifted or was manufactured incorrectly (and there are tons of cheap balancers on the market anymore), none of this is likely to be applicable, unfortunately.

When his cam was degreed, the balancer and timing tab should have been confirmed and marked for true TDC. Do you know if they were?

I should add that it is always important on DZ302 and similar time period motors to use the correct timing cover with integral tab with whatever damper you use. That would still hold true, though I think most tabs are separate bolt-on items since the early 70's. It is even more critical to confirm TDC when using adjustable pointers and fully degreed dampers. The fact that you know you are 78* advanced tends to indicate a fully degreed balancer?

Even back in 69, the timing mark was only moved a few degrees (8 or 10?); not 60 or 70.

Good to know, but original balancer on both cars and yes the TDC mark was confirmed on the balancer.

Alright just for the hell of it, last night we got the engine to TDC and put the distributor back one tooth to were it was supposed to be. Big suprise it wouldn't start and I couldn't even get a reading on the timing. So once again we had to advance it all the way without moving it a tooth for it to even run and to get a reading on the timing, 65*

You could put the distributor 1 tooth off or 10 teeth off, it would not matter as long as the plug wires were moved to correspond with the correct cylinders.

Not to sound like a smart azz or know it all, (I'm just trying to help) but there is no way your engine(s) could be running decent with timing in the 65* to 78* range. The intake valve has just barely closed. Add in 20 degrees of mechanical and the plugs would fire when then intake valves are open.

If anything, the engine should run at TDC, although poorley. The common factor between the two engines you have used your timing light on (and obtained readings in the 70* range) is:

your timing light

Seriously what's the damn deal. Here's what we know:

Cam is degreed
Timing mark on balancer is confirmed at TDC
Wires are hooked up correctly
Reading off the correct wire
Carb is set pretty damn close
Rockers are adjusted

Both cars run best around 78* advance but are definitely lacking power.
His engine has 50 miles, mine has 8,000 supposedly
Both engines are similarly built: 10:1 compression, high .400's lift cams, aftermarket heads etc.

Let's just pretend that these cars really do need 78* degrees as retarded as it sounds. What would cause them to need this ridiculous amount?
Hell if it really is sparking at 78* degrees advanced the piston would barely be a little over half way through the compression stroke. How is it not detonating? How is it even running?

You could put the distributor 1 tooth off or 10 teeth off, it would not matter as long as the plug wires were moved to correspond with the correct cylinders.

Not to sound like a smart azz or know it all, (I'm just trying to help) but there is no way your engine(s) could be running decent with timing in the 65* to 78* range. The intake valve has just barely closed. Add in 20 degrees of mechanical and the plugs would fire when then intake valves are open.

If anything, the engine should run at TDC, although poorley. The common factor between the two engines you have used your timing light on (and obtained readings in the 70* range) is:

your timing light
Also not to be a smart a**, but the Intake valve closes 140* BTDC so unless there's 60 degress mechanical and vacuum advance it wouldn't fire through the intake I believe.

We have tried a different timing light, same results...

And here's another scenario, let's say that both timing lights are bad and we really are running 12* advance. Why are these cars lacking so much power? Seen dozens of engines with the same setups getting over 400 horses at the crank. These things fell like they have less than stock.

The intake closes about 100* BTDC on a performance cam.
78+20=98 OK so I was 2 degree off.
I hope you get it figured out, this is a strange one

http://www.compcams.com/Base/Images/Technical/800-615-ValveTimingIllustration-002.gif

The intake closes about 100* BTDC on a performance cam.
78+20=98 OK so I was 2 degree off.
I hope you get it figured out, this is a strange one

http://www.compcams.com/Base/Images/Technical/800-615-ValveTimingIllustration-002.gif
I was just going off his cam card.
Yeah it would be nice...

Hello everyone the engine Rustbucketz28 is referring to is my 355 that we built together and as he has mentioned we are both lost. My question I have is why when we moved the distributor back one tooth to where it is supposed to be, why do I get very little spark (like 1 dim flash every couple cranks) but when I advance the s**t out of it do I get excellent spark and it fires right up? Thanks in advance for all of your guys help and expertise in this matter. Hopefully it can be solved.

Stupid question for you, since the two of you are having the same problem. Were these new crate motors or were they built by the same shop/person. Not saying they were put together wrong just looking for a common thread.

The 355 that started this thread in my car was built by my buddy and I. The 355 in his camaro was built by the previous owner. I do not know the previous owners experience on building motors, but this is not our first rodeo, we have built several stock motors. But unfortunately this is our first performance motor.
:bowtie:

Tried a regular timing light and the mark on the balancer is on the opposite side of the timing mark.

Not to ask a really stupid question, but do you have the distributor 180 degrees out? I did this once myself. Can you verify that when cylinder #1 is at TDC that it is on the compression stroke and not the exhaust stroke when the distributor is pointing at #1?

In my world nothing is a stupid question, its usually the simple things that solve the major problems. But yes we have checked it no less then hundred times on my engine. We have used a piston stop method, degree wheel method, finger over #1 spark plug hole, and watching the valves move, and that is just off the top of my head. The only thing I have not done is check the phasing on the rotor. Does anyone else think that could be the issue? the distributor is brand new accel unit. Just a shot in the dark I guess.

Wasn't questioning your building ability, just wondering since nobody else has ever had this problem is there a something in common with the 2 motors. You said the build was about the same. What about distributor and other ignition parts. If they are both the same, maybe try something different on one and see if it makes a difference.

I'm stumped by your problem as I've NEVER seen it in the almost 50 years of working on SBCs.

Time to step back and reorganize.

You degreed the cam in it should be safe to ASSUME that the cam is in phase with the crankshaft.

I believe you said you verified that with the #1 piston (driver's side front piston) at TDC, the harmonic balancer zero slot aligns to the zero (0) on the timing tab. Is that correct?

You also said that you are attaching the timing light to the #1 spark plug which is the left front (drivers side front) of the engine.

You also verified that all the spark plug wires are going to their correct spark plug (1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2). I'm going to assume that you have an HEI distributor. The spark plug wire for #1 cylinder should be in the 5 o'clock post of the distributor. The rest of the spark plug wires should go clockwise from there around the cap.

Other than that, I'd say get someone with more experience that tunes "old style ignition systems" (as opposed to a computer controlled vehicle mechanic) to physically take a look at your problem(s). You might get lucky and find someone who has an old Sun machine with a scope on it that could actually look at the spark sequence (good luck finding one of those!).

Are both distributors brand new Accel units? The same or different?

If they were points distributors, I'd wonder if the lobes were worn. If HEI, and I have no idea if it is even possible to accidently swap V-8 and V-6 internal HEI components, I'd wonder if it didn't have a V-6 reluctor in it and count the teeth. I have no idea about Accel distributors; how they work or what they use.

What do your spark plugs look like? Are there any that look like they may not be firing? Can you move the timing light pickup from cylinder to cylinder and maintain the same flashing frequency? While doing that, do the timing marks line up better at any point?

I'm shooting in the dark here, but once you eliminate the probable, all that remains is the improbable. This is entirely bizarre for one motor; but TWO?!! Now you're talking about a commonality. An ignition commonality.

So what do the two motors share in common as far as parts from the same source or installation? As brought up earlier, the common denominator of the timing light has been checked with at least one other timing light, correct? So scratch that for now.

So we're down to a common installation error such as being a tooth or terminal off, which has already been covered as has the true TDC and cam degreeing. Scratch that for now.

That leaves a common parts error such as defective distributors or distributor components from the same source.

Somewhere, something identical and equally wrong was installed or done to both motors involving the ignition systems. At this point, yank the Accel distributor(s) and drop a known-to-be-good HEI in there. See what happens.

I would try a few things
You state the engine is down on power

a) I would take a compression test
b) I would try the timing light(s) on a known good motor even if it's a ford
c) If TDC is 100% verified, then I don't think it's a Distributor or ignition problem.
d) break out a degree wheel and see how far the camshaft is advanced more than it should be

Like 1972L says, there is still the possibility that both cams and timing chain/gear sets were installed and degreed by the same person the same way incorrectly. That is definitely part of the ignition/timing system and could still be the commonality you are searching for.

Wasn't questioning your building ability, just wondering since nobody else has ever had this problem is there a something in common with the 2 motors. You said the build was about the same. What about distributor and other ignition parts. If they are both the same, maybe try something different on one and see if it makes a difference.

Dont worry If anyone is questioning our engine building capability it would be me. As far as I know the builds are similar. Difference is my heads are aluminum edelbrocks and his are iron world products. My cam is a lunati 60103 and we don't know what his is, we were told it was in the high .400's on lift. My distributor is a brand new accel unit with msd cap and rotor and wires. His looks like a stock hei distributor with just a accel coil on it.

I would try a few things
You state the engine is down on power

a) I would take a compression test
b) I would try the timing light(s) on a known good motor even if it's a ford
c) If TDC is 100% verified, then I don't think it's a Distributor or ignition problem.
d) break out a degree wheel and see how far the camshaft is advanced more than it should be

Well I really want to get this car going again so I plan on doing a compression test and cylinder leak down test tonight.
I will double check the timing lights against a few of my other cars to make sure its accurate tonight. TDC doesn't get anymore verified then it is at this point but I plan on checking once more. I already put the engine back together after making sure it lined up with the cam card, and we checked that multiple times. But I've got to be overlooking something?

did you bring the piston to TDC and make sure the marks line up? I just bought a car and I wouldnt even run below 60* and I was trying to figure out what was up so I brought #1 piston to TDC and the balancer mark was strait up and down and I had the tab on the drivers side. I just made a new mark with a marker at 0 on the tab set it to 38* and all is well now.

Check your valve lash, they may be over adjusted.

I've setup a motor awhile back adjusted to zero lash, then my friend readjusted them without telling me. Came back in the morning and had a heck of a time to get it to run right. It would start when we really advanced the timing but that didnt seem right. Found out later that day that he had over adjusted the valves.

This Is Weird Man............

Are both distributors brand new Accel units? The same or different?

If they were points distributors, I'd wonder if the lobes were worn. If HEI, and I have no idea if it is even possible to accidently swap V-8 and V-6 internal HEI components, I'd wonder if it didn't have a V-6 reluctor in it and count the teeth. I have no idea about Accel distributors; how they work or what they use.

What do your spark plugs look like? Are there any that look like they may not be firing? Can you move the timing light pickup from cylinder to cylinder and maintain the same flashing frequency? While doing that, do the timing marks line up better at any point?

I'm shooting in the dark here, but once you eliminate the probable, all that remains is the improbable. This is entirely bizarre for one motor; but TWO?!! Now you're talking about a commonality. An ignition commonality.

So what do the two motors share in common as far as parts from the same source or installation? As brought up earlier, the common denominator of the timing light has been checked with at least one other timing light, correct? So scratch that for now.

So we're down to a common installation error such as being a tooth or terminal off, which has already been covered as has the true TDC and cam degreeing. Scratch that for now.

That leaves a common parts error such as defective distributors or distributor components from the same source.

Somewhere, something identical and equally wrong was installed or done to both motors involving the ignition systems. At this point, yank the Accel distributor(s) and drop a known-to-be-good HEI in there. See what happens.
Well we had the original distibutor from the car that was known to be good and before the engine was rebuilt ran great at 8* advance. After engine rebuilt 78*. Decided to throw some money at the problem and bought the accel unit...

Check your valve lash, they may be over adjusted.

I've setup a motor awhile back adjusted to zero lash, then my friend readjusted them without telling me. Came back in the morning and had a heck of a time to get it to run right. It would start when we really advanced the timing but that didnt seem right. Found out later that day that he had over adjusted the valves.
Interesting, but the valves are definitely adjusted right.

Been adjusted three times now actually...

did you bring the piston to TDC and make sure the marks line up? I just bought a car and I wouldnt even run below 60* and I was trying to figure out what was up so I brought #1 piston to TDC and the balancer mark was strait up and down and I had the tab on the drivers side. I just made a new mark with a marker at 0 on the tab set it to 38* and all is well now.
Yes we probably checked it a dozen times now.

I'm starting to think that maybe we were sent the wrong pistons and have really low compression. Would that cause the need for this much timing?

We're going to perform a compression test at some point, what should good readings be for a 10:1 compression engine?

Are you sure you are running a .750 reach spark plug? Edelbrock recommends a champion rc12yc or equivalent which is a .750 reach plug.

I ask because I had the exact same problem as you are having with my motor. I reused the old plugs when I first put it together and then swapped in some new header plugs after I broke it in. I pulled all the plugs at one time and put all the new ones in not realizing that I had just installed a set of short reach plugs....sounds retarded, but I never caught it.

The motor required a s#!t load of timing just to get it started and had no power. I really felt like a dumbass when I pulled a plug to see what was going on and realized they were the wrong reach.

Just something to double check.

Maybe this has been covered and I apologize if I missed it, but....

Could this be as simple as the wrong timing cover matched with the wrong damper?

I've never ran across this problem myself, but I've read on here numerous times about some engines having the timing tab and damper at the 2 o'clock position and some at nearly the 12 o'clock position.

Just trying to help eliminate possibilities.

Are you sure you are running a .750 reach spark plug? Edelbrock recommends a champion rc12yc or equivalent which is a .750 reach plug.

I ask because I had the exact same problem as you are having with my motor. I reused the old plugs when I first put it together and then swapped in some new header plugs after I broke it in. I pulled all the plugs at one time and put all the new ones in not realizing that I had just installed a set of short reach plugs....sounds retarded, but I never caught it.

The motor required a s#!t load of timing just to get it started and had no power. I really felt like a dumbass when I pulled a plug to see what was going on and realized they were the wrong reach.

Just something to double check.

Well we just pulled some plugs and they're all .750 reach. Would be nice if it was that simple..

Here's my question, have you used a different timing light other than the digital type? On the digital type is there switch for say 4,6, or 8 cylinders? Sometimes it's the stupid things that trip us up the most, or at least they do for me. This is interesting and I will be following this thread.

If the timing lamp has an inductive pick-up (most common) the direction when you clamp it on the wire is important.

Are you both running an MSD or other type of ing. box?

Any Luck?

Any Luck?
Sorry everyone who was following this forum for not responding. Between work and life, things got hectic last few weeks. Anyways Got the car up and running again and did a compression test on it and compression was only around 150psi average. So decided to tear down again and advance the cam a further 8 degrees, which is mostly to bring up my cranking compression and lower my power band. According to a few articles I read (cant remember where, but will post when I find them) I have too low of static compression and too high duration of a camshaft. I believe they sent me the wrong pistons (ordered to 10:1 probably got stockers). Any who ended of changing out my wires for my stock ones cause three wires were melted by headers (Yes, that was the problem the whole time, I have yet to stop kicking myself in the a** for that one.) Still runs at 78 degrees advance but will now melt the tires going into third gear and this is with stock stall converter and 3.08 gears in rear. Sorry for the long explanation but it had to be done.

Would love to hear anymore suggestions to fix the timing its bugging me. Thanks