It was around 92-93 degrees out today so what better to do than to crawl under the car, drill and weld, and take the interior half apart and put it back together again.

It's all Big Mouses' fault...he talked me into this.

So it's installed and so far so good. Didn't really go for a ride but sitting in the driveway warmed up at idle I'm at 12.0 to 12.3. Kinda explains why my exhaust stinks. Maybe in a day or two (if it's hot enough outside) I will start to dial this pig in once and for all.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ken

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t110/camaropigs2000/AF.jpg

awesome! I think I might have to as well now.

See the lone_anarchist he even has a video floating around here somewhere.

Sweet! A wideband is a real eye-opener. I put one on my Beretta and found out my mail-order tune idles at 11.5-12! Without a wideband it's even harder to tell where you are with a car that has a cat converter.

Do you have anything to datalog the results or are you just going to go by eye while driving? I plan on taking the wideband out of the Beretta once I get it sorted out and stick it in the Camaro.

Do you have anything to datalog the results or are you just going to go by eye while driving? I plan on taking the wideband out of the Beretta once I get it sorted out and stick it in the Camaro.

It has a data log and serial output....

I mean after so many mods and changes everything we all know and think about tuning kinda goes out the window, which is fine if your car is giving you a clear signal about what to do or change next. The problem is when the car IS NOT giving you a clear signal on what to change...then everybody starts guessing. And that just plain sucks. So that is the
reason it's wideband time.

It's all Big Mouses' fault...he talked me into this.



:D Let the tuning begin! I hope this helps (it sounds like it is already).

Please keep us posted on what changes you make and how the A/F ratio responds. I love this stuff...

It has a data log and serial output....

Does that mean you just hook it up to your labtop when you come home, to read out?

Does that mean you just hook it up to your labtop when you come home, to read out?

I don't believe it is quite that simple; however, the manual explains the process. You can download the manual from the AEM website. You would probably still want a tach signal and possibly a vacuum reading to make the info really useful - and this won't help you with that.

Personally, I have a vacuum gauge and a fuel pressure gauge on either side of my A/F meter. I can quickly look down and then over at the tach to see what is going on and when. Combine that with a video camera (like loneanarchist did) and you will see everything you need to know.

Good deal Ken. Very interested to hear how it works out.

That's a great idea....


(goes off on ebay to start looking how much there are... :) )

A wideband is the way to go,
However, I recall seeing a test done with 8 different aftermarket wideband systems on the same engine, at the same time.
Not all 8 gave readings consistant with the calibrated standard (lab quality).
Some were high, some were low.

I'll see if I can find the link.

Here's some good info,
I did not get a chance to go through it all but it's similar to the testing I saw.

http://www.newtiburon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109436

So by what they say...the AEM gauge came in second on their ratings.

Seems like it should perform OK for a unit that costs around $200.00

I was kinda going by what Big Mouse (Eric) had experienced, because with stuff like this I like to seek advice from the people that know...what I need to know.

Update:


Today it was perfect outside like 80 degrees and cloudy.

First was the idle circuit.
It was running about at 11.5 to 12 at idle and the constant stink of the car was one of the main problems. With some idle speed and mixture adjustment along with advancing the timing a bit, I zeroed in on an almost ideal number of 14.5 to 15.
The gauge made such simple work of this it was almost a joke. Such a simple thing like the timing though, the gauge let me know exaxtly what was helping or hurting my cause.

As it sat there at idle in my driveway I realized that the rich smell and the fumes were gone..gone..gone. Even standing in back of the car, Gone.

Now that alone was well worth the price of the gauge as far as I was concerned.

Next up was the cruise/power circuit: This was a huge surprise to me
The car has had a sort of flat spot while cruising when you go to give it more throttle. According to what everyone knows/says up till now that usually means a lean condition that tells you to richin up the circuit. So I did with a rod and jet change with really no improvement.
Now with the gauge.........it showed at cruise stepping into the throttle to be around 10. way too much gas. So I went back to the original ...leaner..rod/jet combo, and that showed up at 11.1 to 11.3.

So the A/F ratio was getting better but the car still drove the same. I then went to a leaner metering rod and my cruise/power went to 13.5 to 14.
The car drove so much better and the throttle reponse was so instant it's hard to describe. It now pulls all the way through third gear all the way to where I shift into 4th.
My point is....the car never pulled like this through second and third gear ever.

All signs before pointed to a lean condition and the engine need more fuel..right? ....WRONG....the gauge told me the real story and that was a way over-rich condition in the cruise/power range and what was really needed was a leaner jet/rod combo. Never in a million years would I have thought that without the gauge.

This wideband thing is just unreal in that the input it gives you is the way it is with no more guessing. As I sat at one of the stoplights by my house I again realized that there was no more stink anywhere in or around my car.

I have to say....that with all the time this thing has saved me...I should've put one in months ago. I wasted so much time screwing around I can't tell you.
Recommend it to anyone who really is serious about the way their engine runs and their car performs..>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.Ken

Very encouraging news. Just yesterday I got my wideband set up with the datastream so I can log all the info... TPS, MAP, RPM, AFR. It's a beautiful thing.

Great news Ken. Thanks for the detailed info.

Question...I noticed you have an Accel coil. You set your initial timing, but is your timing curve stock '77 LM1, or have you played with the advance?

would like to add that I installed mine tonight and ups should be bringin the new 650 ultra dbl pumper tomorrow...Should be fun!

Great news Ken. Thanks for the detailed info.

Question...I noticed you have an Accel coil. You set your initial timing, but is your timing curve stock '77 LM1, or have you played with the advance?


Steve,

This is the distributer that is in the car now it's 2 years old.

http://www.jegs.com/i/GM-Performance/809/93440806/10002/-1?parentProductId=753469#moreDetails

Now here's where it gets kinda strange....

When I bought this thing you could tell right away that all the mech advance is in by about 3000 rpm or so. That part is perfect..never had to touch the springs/weights

The vacuum advance unit that's on it sucks big time.
The vacuum advance can on the thing was non-adjustable and I tell you what, it seemed like you ALWAYS had full vacuum advance no matter what level vacuum I was pulling.. It was part throttle ping city..bad.

An adjustable Accel advance solved that problem right away.

The coil is just one that was on sale at Auto Zone. Makes no difference as far as I could tell.

So...when you add it up I spent about $230-$250 on the distributer. Are there better deals out there? For sure

BTW my old distributer off of the old engine had rusty and worn advance weights and pivot pins along with worn bushings, I tossed it in the trash.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ken

would like to add that I installed mine tonight and ups should be bringin the new 650 ultra dbl pumper tomorrow...Should be fun!


I would love to see how a 600-650 DP mech secondary Holley carb would run with my 4 speed.

what gauge pillar pod is that for?



I need to get a setup like this when i put the 11:1 dart headed 350 in the gold machine.

what gauge pillar pod is that for?



I need to get a setup like this when i put the 11:1 dart headed 350 in the gold machine.

I got it from my neighbor who has some sort of Bad Ass Mustang. It's a 1987 Ford that he rolls out of his garage .....and puts it on the trailer to go to the track.

Since I took that picture I've put a heat gun on the Pod, and it molded itself to fit perfect around the pillar. I think I'm going to leave it in the car full time

figured it came off a stang, most guys have had success with those.


haha, i love trailer queens. Only one dad HAD to trailer was his 68, then agian it was a 454 open chamber offroad use crate with 12.5:1 compression and 4.88 gears on a 32" slick, haha. Then again, i think he had a hitch on it incase his tow car broke down lol. He was pretty crazy back in the day.


How difficult was the install? just take a power lead from the fusebox or?

How difficult was the install? just take a power lead from the fusebox or?

The wiring is cake. The difficult part for me was having to weld this thing into my header collector while on my back, under the car, upside down with the MIG.

I'd like to see those Flux-Core guys do this without gas.......
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t110/camaropigs2000/sensor.jpg

ill have my exhaust guy do it when he makes my pipes. I need to have him tig on the 3 bolt flange to my super comps as well, for some reason hooker has a slip on flange for the 1 7/8 headers, really dont know why they dont use a three bolt flange like every other header lol.

Okay, Kenny... where can I buy this? I think it will really help getting my blower dialed in.

Okay, Kenny... where can I buy this? I think it will really help getting my blower dialed in.


Here you go. They are on E-bay too..for 199.00 free shipping.

http://www.jegs.com/p/AEM/AEM-6-in-1-Gauge-Type-Wideband-UEGO-Controller/761747/10002/-1

Here you go. They are on E-bay too..for 199.00 free shipping.

http://www.jegs.com/p/AEM/AEM-6-in-1-Gauge-Type-Wideband-UEGO-Controller/761747/10002/-1

They're 184 with free shipping from fleabay aswell.

I've wanted to do this for a long time. Maybe I'll put off buying a set of tires and get an AFR setup. Will probably yield better gas mileage increases than fresh tires would.

I keep raving about it to my customers but I don't even have one myself.

Thanks for the info Ken. I think it's time to add a WB to my "things to buy" list...after reading this thread, I can only imagine how far off my tune is after setting it via the seat-of-the-pants method. It has been interesting to learn how to adjust a Qjet though...stuff I shoulda learned 20 years ago. :o

It will be interesting to see how much it will change in the heat of the summer.

Thanks for the info Ken. I think it's time to add a WB to my "things to buy" list...after reading this thread, I can only imagine how far off my tune is after setting it via the seat-of-the-pants method. It has been interesting to learn how to adjust a Qjet though...stuff I shoulda learned 20 years ago. :o



Steve,

The seat of the pants method doesn't do/mean squat anymore to me now. The "Seat of the pants" symptoms/signals that my car was giving me turned out to be 100% wrong in my cruise power circuit of this carb.

All I can say is I have INSTANT throttle now and the car leaps off the stoplight and pulls like this engine never has before. I'm a Born Again Wideband Believer.
I learned and know Edelbrock carbs pretty well too, I think that's why I was so surprised that I could have been that far away from where it had to be.
That Qjet carb you have may be an expert built carb that will give you more power than you thought possible with the right adjustments .

Big Mouse..(Eric) can help give you some much needed insight also . I get the feeling he has forgot more info about this stuff than most of us know>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ken

For those who don't weld or don't know anyone who does weld, you also have this option.

http://www.jegs.com/p/AEM/AEM-No-Weld-O2-Sensor-Mount/1334708/10002/-1

does it come with the sensor or is that separate? add doesn't say if it does or not? i'd assume not. thanks for any info.
andy

yes the sensor is included along with the bung.very easy to install.Holley is giving me a royal screwing .I dont even know when the carb is coming.It was supposed to be here today and when it wasnt I callled and they dont even have any!:whine: I am going from one of the famous defective 670 avenger to the double pumper.The 4 speed isnt going in for a few more weeks so Im not gonna go crazy tunin till then...Cant wait!

Probably preaching to choir now, but I also have the AEM unit and love it. I have actually used an older style "exhaust gas analyzer" since the the late '70s. With that I never had to learn how to "read plugs" or "guess" at Carb or even FI adjustments.

Right I am trying to figure out why my Holley HP double-pumper idles and cruises at 13:1, but then leans out to 17:1 under mild acceleration (before the power circuit kicks in.) While the car seems to accelerate well, at least I now know that it could be even better.

A muffler shop charged me $125 to weld in the O2 sensor, but that was probably a rip-off price.

yes the sensor is included along with the bung.very easy to install.

thank you!
andy

You have an incorrect PV

Probably preaching to choir now, but I also have the AEM unit and love it. I have actually used an older style "exhaust gas analyzer" since the the late '70s. With that I never had to learn how to "read plugs" or "guess" at Carb or even FI adjustments.

Right I am trying to figure out why my Holley HP double-pumper idles and cruises at 13:1, but then leans out to 17:1 under mild acceleration (before the power circuit kicks in.) While the car seems to accelerate well, at least I now know that it could be even better.

A muffler shop charged me $125 to weld in the O2 sensor, but that was probably a rip-off price.

A muffler shop charged me $125 to weld in the O2 sensor, but that was probably a rip-off price.

damn, i think i paid like 30 bucks to have a shop weld a 02 bung on one of my cars and the exhaust was on the car!!

You have an incorrect PV

I have a vacuum gauge next to the Wideband A/F gauge. (Great combo!) I had a 4.5 PV and recently switched to a 6.5. Sure enough, right around 6.5" of vacuum the A/F ratio improves to 13:1 or so.

The engine has a 287 cam and pretty low vacuum. 7" at 1000rpm idle, 17" at highway cruise. Positively no vacuum leaks; no longer even use vacuum for power brakes (have HydraBoost); no vacuum line to the distributor.

If I take my foot off the throttle and get 20" vacuum, the A/F goes to 11:1. The more throttle I give it the lower the vacuum of course, but also the leaner it gets, going down to 16:1 or leaner at about 7" of vacuum. I know that carbs lean out (hence the need for a PV), but this seems excessive. I bought this car a year ago. So far I have:

* Rebuilt the carb with a kit. (I rebuilt a few since 1975, so pretty familiar with it.)

* Read the entire book "Super Tuning and Modifying Holley Carburetors", twice.

* Replaced with main jets; I have many jet sizes. Currently 72 primary, 82 secondary.

* Confirmed that the Holley HP idle and power "air jets" are the correct size.

* Replaced the float valves and installed sight-plugs to confirm that the float level is correct. I have a fuel pressure gauge and it is steady at 5 lbs.

BTW - During my fiddling I once got the carb way wrong and much too lean; when the A/F gauge when "off scale" past 17:1 lean the engine also went dead. It actually felt like the ignition had gone out, but the A/F showed the real problem.

If anyone with a wideband can give me feedback what their A/F ratio is under cruising and mild/moderate acceleration, that would be appreciated. I would like to "solve" this before I switch to EFI and then forever wonder what the problem was.

If anyone with a wideband can give me feedback what their A/F ratio is under cruising and mild/moderate acceleration, that would be appreciated. I would like to "solve" this before I switch to EFI and then forever wonder what the problem was.

Mine is now holding at around 13.5 cruise, just into the throttle. I know you can go leaner and be OK but I'm a bit skeered.

Holleys sometime suffer from the mysterious internal vacuum leak that comes from the warped metering blocks and/or main bodys.

Man, this stuff is extremely interesting!!
I have been wanting to get one of these but always seem to end up having to buy other things first.
I suck at tuning carbs and have no idea how to even mess with them but I do know that something like this would be a great help in getting the tune just where it needs to be.
Keep the info flow going guys, this is awsome stuff to learn.:D