http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2443232596&category=33727

I need a overdrive for my '71. Would rather have one done locally, but found above auction..what do you think ?
Jake, you doing any of these ?

I stay away from the 700's for a few reasons.

They will work fine in a cruiser or stock vehicle but for a HP vehicle we're talking about replacing EVERYTHING in one of the things.
Parts cost me over $500 for a kit, the Corvette servo, Beast sun gear shell, shift kit, 5 pinion planets, 13 vane pump kit with HD rings and vanes, good 2-4 band, upgraded pressure regulator springs, bigger boost valves, hi-rev spring kit, upgraded 3-4 clutch pack, etc..

I won't touch building one for less than $300 because of the hassle and possible warranty and then if a customer fails to set up the TV cable properly it's toast and no fault of mine....

And most guys do not understand how to properly set it up in a stock application much less a conversion.

So yeah I AVOID 700's. I've done them for myself and a few friends in the past in near stock vehicles and they work great.

Just really not the trans of choice for a hard running heavy street/strip ride.


Any of the builders that want to prove me wrong can send one to Denton TX and I'll thoroughly test it behind my 600+ lb ft motor in a 3800+ lb ride for a season. http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

There is NO current fix for the weak input drum problem, other than a band-aid and it doesn't work.

BTO and others are using this band-aid...

I do build 200-4R's though....

Might be able to do something on one of these.

Are you running a TH350 now?
Wanna buy a TH400 crossmember for your car?

What kinda stall are you looking at?

I may build an extra 200-4R and need to do some testing with it...

It would contain the stock forward drum so for a hard hitter (400 hp or more) you may have problems.

I have a stock converter..

Haven't run the car yet. Rebuilding a '71. Got the motor back Wednesday so I am ready to go. Motor is a 383 with a little over 500HP (haven't dynoed yet, just desk-top dynoed the combo)
rear is a posi with 3.90 gears. Rear tires are BFG 275/60/15's
I was figuring on about a 2200 -2400 stall.
**This is a weekend cruiser, I may get the itch to take it to the motorplex once a year, but no more than that. The furthest I may cruise without a trailer might be 75 miles round trip.
I have a th350 that came with car, have no idea whats been done to that. (weird thing is I found a posi rear with almost new 4.56 gears in the car when I checked it.) I do not have any history on the car.
So what do you suggest ??? Do you think the overdrive is gonna be that big a deal to me or just a big freakin headache ?

A 700R4/4L60 built correctly will work fine for you. I see no need for 5 pin planets in your case just a good quality rebuilt with the correct parts and addressing worn out valve body components.

Yeah Jakeshoe you are right they are all junk. Stay away from them http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

Ellis
500FWHP and a 4L60E with 3,750Lbs
running 11s shotting for tens!

uhhhh...????

2Fast,
If you can "build one correctly" for ~640 lb ft of torque,
send it to me....

If it lasts a season I'll pay retail price...
If it fails from either hard parts failure or friction failure you buy the driveshaft and crossmember required to install it, the converter I buy to install it, and buy me a new billet drum so I can build a spare 200 for my car http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

OK, I got the cash...what should I build here ?

The absolute toughest thing you can do is to build a TH400 and put a Gear Vendors on it. You will be dealing with a near bulletproof combo.

Next best thing is a 4L80E using a stand alone computer,
then the other option is a 4L80 with a TransGo stick shift kit, full manual, no computer.

Next is a Th350 with a GV.

Then the next strongest GM trans option is a 200-4R with all the billet pieces. Primarily the forward drum.

Then a 700 built up with all the pieces.

Prices are:
TH400 complete minus converter about $600 in full HD form.
Add $2200 for a GV.

4L80E core is probably $500 if you shop around, then a rebuild about that again, then a computer is $600-700. Total about $1500-2000.
The Transgo manual kit is $200... if you opt for that instead of the 'puter.


TH350 built up is about $500-550
Then add $2200 for GV..


200-4R all billet using a GN core is about $3K plus converter.
It has some neat options though...
Only trans with a 'brake AND full automatic function capability.
A GN core is $600 unless you can find one yourself.
You can skip some billet pieces and build it cheaper though.
You could also use a lesser core if you are going to be manually shifting.
If you go the lesser route about $1500 including good billet drum and good clutches.

700r4 costs about $800-900 and will never be as strong as any of the other options due to the input drum, and buying a newer drum (added to above price) from GM would be a wise investment.


I may have a slightly cheaper option but it depends...
And with your approx HP you would want to buy a billet drum...

Jake - it sounds like you need some help when it comes to building up a 700R4/4l60e.

4l60e - typically installed on cars (lightweight)
4l80e - higher torque rating and typically found on trucks (heavier transmission)

These links might help you with those performance problems:
http://answers.netgearhead.net/ubbthreads.php

http://www.phoenixtrans.com/html/gmtrans.html

http://www.transmissioncenter.net/700MegaRaptor.htm

81-74CamaroZ28,

I wouldn't consider Phoenix or Transmission Center among the best builders in the country.
If you speak with the top trans builders in the country that build all types of trans I'm pretty sure they will agree with what I have posted.
Especially as far as strengths go.

Can a 700 be built to work well, yes.

Will it hold up behind brutal torque on a vehicle that actually hooks up, for a little while....

As I've stated SEVERAL times there is NO "FIX" for the weak input drum.

At this time the best option is to use a new model 4L60-E drum with all the updates.

The other option is to do what most of these people who build "bulletproof" 700R4's do and install the band-aided drum that has a sleeve pressed over the area that cracks.

This is a band-aid fix and until someone makes this drum with a 300M or E4340 shaft and a billet aluminum (or other material) drum section it will be a problem.

The company that makes the "band-aid" drum is Torque Drive Engineering, go here...
www.torquedriveinc.com (http://www.torquedriveinc.com)

They claim 600 lb ft capability but will not warranty it at this level...
I asked...
They also have not provided me with the laboratory results or what lab did the testing....
What does that tell you?

I assure you I can build a 700 using all the updated and best currently available parts as well as the next guy.

The difference is that I'm not trying to sell ANYONE something under false pretenses.
I'm not trying to sell a guy a 700 and tell him that it will handle 600 lb ft of torque and last 5 years.
That guy needs a 400 or a 4L80E, and yes I understand what the trans were designed for and installed in.
I also understand the meaning of the designations being a GM certified master tech.

I'm not here to sell anything really other than to put correct information in the hands of those BEFORE they spend their hard earned money.

If you want to plop $850-1000 on a 700-R4 and take your chances, OK.
It MAY work well for you. I'd say in a fairly light car (3200 lbs or less), with a moderate motor, (less than 450 lb ft), it will work exceptionally well and may last years if properly built.

There are very few secrets on a 700, as they are all well documented online and pretty freely distributed.

If I were like these companies selling 700's left and right and making them out to be the best thing ever I'd be doing the same, but I won't sell them to a customer that I feel it won't work well for.

Believe me, I've got almost everything to build one sitting here as we speak, complete kit, everything but the Beast sun shell, and the 5 pinion planets(not always necessary). If I wanted to make a quick buck I would've already built one up to sell to whoever came to buy it...
Like the above addresses do.

I seriously doubt that those companies warranty is like mine...


dcs14,
As with everything in life you have options and the better ones are more expensive...

If you want a trans I can build whatever you want if you want it locally done.

If you want one of the best trans builders in the country to build it, Mike Kurtz of Century Trans, he's in TX but a little ways away.

I have a 200-4R I can build-up (because I have the pieces) and I want to do some testing with one of these. However it would contain a stock forward drum, probably fine in your car without slicks, but if you juice it and get it to bite it would be very iffy.
However, I'd like to know what it takes to break one if you wanna test it http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif
You buy the crossmember (TH400 crossmember about $70 on Ebay), TV cable setup (about $40 from GM and we mod your throttle arm), it uses a stock TH350 driveline, you get a converter(my free stock one to whatever you wanna spend...), and pay what the kit costs me (about $200 in parts) and I'll assemble one using a generic valve body, Grand National servo, TransGo shift kit, bigger boost valves, and a few other tricks.

You take it and abuse it and we'll see how it holds up. It breaks, you pull it, bring it to me and we'll repair it, no labor, you supply parts....

Here's the deal though....
I may want to try some valve body tuning on it. Swapping VB's, testing mods, working on making it work like one of the rare VB's...

So it may take a few times taking the pan off to mod it...

Jake. If you wasnt so far off I would talk to you about that testing deal.

I got a th-400 in my 88 camaro, 420 hp 355, with a 2800 stall converter, 3.42 open gears, etc, and looking for better MPG.. The 200 4R seems about right for my needs.

I keep tearing out th-350's (stock). My driving style is very rough on transmissions, so I just put in what I knew wouldnt tear out fast. The th-400


DCS13... I would think hard about taking Jake up on that offer. From the post I read he knows his stuff.

Jake - I was not presenting you with a list of best builders - just some companies that offer builds of the 700R4/4l60e and 4l80e combination with 1 year warranties. The warranty states that it is rated with greater torque than you are stating.

My point is - if you cant build it and warranty it with a high HP/Torque rating - that doesnt mean no one else can.

81-74,

These builders (if they will actually warranty at all) are counting on the fact that most peole don't have a car that will hook, and few will actually make the high TQ ratings they say anyway.

They are in business to sell 700's,
because the cores and parts are plentiful, cheap, and the trans are fairly easy to build.


IF there was an input drum worth messing with I would build more of them, it is currently the weak piece.
It WILL survive higher torque rating than say 450 lbs but only in limited use, not every weekend at the dragstrip.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by jakeshoe:


</font>

Just a quick question if you dont mind, I've got a 700R4 with an 11 vane pump, vette servo, shift improver kit, 30-spline input shaft, and lets say basic rebuild.. In your opinion, would it be ok behind a 290-300hp/375TQ 400sbc in an '81 Z28.. Weighs like 3500lbs.. (removed some stuff to lighten it a little)..3.42 posi rear.. with stock converter.. Or may upgrade to a 2,000 - 2200 stall converter..
Would I be safe to install it? Consider it to be a daily driver..

Yes at that level a near stock 700 or 200-4R will work great.

Sounds like you have it built with the normal upgrades so as long as the TV cable is setup properly your in business.

Go to www.700r4.com (http://www.700r4.com) for TV cable setup info.

Jake, I think I will take you up on that deal. I will email you an we'll hook up.
Thanks -dave

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by jakeshoe:
Yes at that level a near stock 700 or 200-4R will work great.

Sounds like you have it built with the normal upgrades so as long as the TV cable is setup properly your in business.

Go to www.700r4.com (http://www.700r4.com) for TV cable setup info.</font>

Thanks.. What do you think about the converter? Would I be safe to install it with the stock unit? I got it included with the tranny.. My cam is like 2 steps above stock.. I think it should be ok, but would like some pros advice.. I know my off the line wont be as is now b/c i think i have a 2200 - 2500 stall, but i will live for it b/c it won't be forever..

Thanks again

So Jake EVERYONE is runing your combo? Or are you just good at being a smart ass because some thing did not work for you?

I hate to tell you NOTHING will work if you abuse it to much not even a TH400. I used to rip Input shafts out of them all the time with a 327!

NO for a dedicated race car I would not run a 4l60 type trans. For a cruiser I would. Then again I do have one that went all season running 10s in a 3,550Lbs car(98 SS). This was a whimpy car by your standards. 400+ RWHP N/A and a 200HP N2O shot. with a 4,400 stall.

You seem fairly narrow minded about this but that is you perogitive(sp). Then again maybe you should learn to build them better or match the right combinations to the right cars http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

For the other really looking for an open mind it really comes down to what you are going to use the car for and how often you race it or beat on it. I know people running 4L60s behind 600ci Big block no problem and I also know people who can't drive 100 miles with out blowing a Power glide or TH400. It all depends on how you using it. The parts are not here yet to support the 4L60 unit right now....then again the TH400 had a worse failure rate then the 4L60 ever did when it came out in the 60s http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif It was not uncommon for them to not even drive off the truck when they were delivered to the deler http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

Look at what you expect from the car and then be honest about it with your self AND your builder. If you are breaking transmissions left and right you should look at the way you are driving them before pointing fingers http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif Spinning the tires at every light, big smokey burnouts and just general abuse is hard to get ANY thing to live up to. You should go to a Super T10 if this is your style and just replace the clutch all the time it is cheaper.

Things are not always as they apear.

I really try to to get into thiese arguments with unarmed people but I hate seeing good people not getting ALL the info. I also do not care how many parts you throw at a trans. If you have no real clue what you are doing you bound for failure so at least let someone who knows what they are doing build the trans for you.

I may not know what I am doing by Jakes standards but I have over 56,000 miles on my 4L60E. It has out lived four engines three rear ends a 14# intercooled blower kit and 30-40 bottles of juice in street trim at 3,750Lbs. It was my daily driver till I started building new motor. It was nothing to jump in this car and blast from Seattle to Stockton and back in 24 hours http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif We would come out of the grape vine and put cruise on 150 and let it go!

One of the BIGGEST things I see people do wrong is use racing clutches in a street car. This is just asking for problems as they are both designed for totally different uses.

I hope this give a little more then the one sided Fight Jake has going here. Sound like he Used the wrong transmission for the wrong application to start with and now has a hard on for them. That is his right by law hehehe

Enjoy all

Ellis
Monster car

2Fast,
Sounds like you are having good luck with your 4l60.

I have nothing against them.
They work fine for their intended purpose.

I currently use a TH400 and will continue to use it behind the 505 cid motor.

I am building 200-4R to go back in the Chevelle after I "steal" the TH400 for the other project.

I can build any trans I want for this car and I selected for my personal use the 200-4R. For several reasons that have been covered.

1 season on a trans is not what most
customers expect...
And most guys don't want to be under a car once or twice a season pulling it out for warranty.
Also most guys don't build their own, as you or I can do.

If you are dealing with a car that was produced with a 4l60 (and I think YOU are) then it will be cheaper to stay with a 700 up to the point that a TH400 would be needed to replace it (more strip than street).

I'm not saying the average 3rd or 4th Gen Camaro owner should take their 4L60 out and put a 200 in.

The reason I would recommend a 200 in most older car conversions is it is easier to install because of the same lenght and driveshaft/yoke as a TH350 (most commonly installed trans) and the same mounting location as the TH400.
So usually more easily instlled than a 700 with no driveshaft cutting necessary.
More clearance in the tunnel, etc..

By the way some of the best builders it he coutnry have had GOOD luck using "racing" clutches on the street.

I usually don't use any "racing" clutch on a mild street trans or even a mild bracket racing trans.

I however,
if starting form scratch and wanted a near bulletproof trans wouls always use a 200 before a 700.
At this time mostly due to the input drum assembly.
If their was a true FIX for this and it was cheap enough (less than $400) this would make the 700 a more cost effective unit.

One of the reasons I think the 200 will hold up better than the 700 is the fact it has 2 center supports.
The 700 is longer and only has one...

Also,
you can see as I told Speed Addict,
the 700 would hold up fine in his application.
See I really don't have anything against them http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif
Just use them in their intended application.

By the way,
I have a friend who runs a 2001 SS in the low 10's.
He's(using another builder) gone through everything in them and still having problems..
He got it to quit burning frictions, then quit breaking hard parts, then quti burning frictions again, now it's breaking pumps.
This is a professional builder (not a side guy like me.. http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif )
He wants me to build him a 200, and is willing to spend the money (whatever it takes...) to quit having to pull a trans every few weekends.

I told him to bring me the 4L60 and we'll see what we can do..

I think he's having builder problems more than trans problems, I think I can get everything else to live but I worry about the drum...

So the nex question is,
when are you sending me that 700 to use behind my 505? http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

Chill out guys, its all about personal preference.

I love my 2004r.

------------------
My 1974 camaro now smog exempt!
400hp 383, 2004r, 4.11 rear, 450lb/inch springs, Del-a-lum, 12:1 steering, Trac-bite springs, big sway bars, need I say more?

13" C5 brakes mounted on spindals ready to be installed, however, I don't have enough money for the big wheels and tires! D'OH!

I'm chilled http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

Really doesn' matter either way..
I just try to help people make an informed decision.
The 4L60's have come a long way since they first came out with the design.
The aftermarket has really done GM a favor on many of these updates.

I know of poeple running the 4L60's into the 10's and having OK luck with them, but I haven't seen one last more than 1 season on a low 10 car without some type of failure.
But in the real world 10's are faster than the "average" enthusiast is gonna go.
In the average high 12 second and slower car a 700/4L60 with nothing real fancy will work.
Good build using a good sun shell, band, shift kit, servo will get it there.
Much faster then the planets get necessary.

Repeated passes on any part, it will eventually fail.
Gm has done a good job getting the 4L60's to hold up behind the new LS1/lS6's and they are putting out a fair amount of power, and we have seen some warranty work...
The updated design should take care of some of that.
Still wondering about the drums though.

Also I believe there MAY be a fix for this weakness, if not yet soon.
No word on prices yet though.

It really does come down to preference.
I guess just about any conciencous builder can do a decent 700.
But to do a ballz to the wall trans it takes more effort, money, and specialty parts.
At this time they aren't available for the 700.
They are for the 200.

My list of pro's/con's:

700 Pro's
Dime a dozen cores
Cheap rebuild and upgrade parts
fairly extensive availability, you can get the parts anywhere.
Plenty of decent builders.

Con's
requires more mods to fit, shortened driveline, possible tunnel clearance issues, crossmember, etc.

Input drum problems

Too wide gear spacing for most cars, works great in a heavy car with a wide torque band, but too much gear reduction in many cars for consistency.


200-4r Pro's
cores are fairly cheap for a generic trans, not quite as common but cheap.
Best gear ratio spread
Ease of install, fewer mods on classic cars.
Parts availability for hard hitting rides to get you to the 9's and very possibly fairly reliably to the high 8's (3400+ lb car...).
Transbrake with full automatic features retained http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif
In fully modded form it is stronger than almost any other OD trans except 4L80E and Ford AOD.

Cons:
Not a lot of good builders
Not as much info available
Parts availability is limited, only a few select sources.
Aftermarket upgrades are a little more costly.
Forward drum assembly is weak in stock form but upgradeable.

That's my take as a "side builder" but I can invite some pretty big name builders in and see what they have to say...

I for one appreciate Jakes (and everyones) input. I have read a lot of jakes posts and he has helped me on several decisions. I would use the 200 in my car from jake without hesitation. I emailed him thursday and let him know that I was basically "given" a th400 that was recently done and came from a wrecked car. So I will run that for now because of its price. However, If I am not satisfied or want the 400 re-done...Jake you got the job if you want it.
Not taking sides here...just appreciate the help.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by jakeshoe:
The absolute toughest thing you can do is to build a TH400 and put a Gear Vendors on it. You will be dealing with a near bulletproof combo.

Next best thing is a 4L80E using a stand alone computer,
then the other option is a 4L80 with a TransGo stick shift kit, full manual, no computer.

Next is a Th350 with a GV.

Then the next strongest GM trans option is a 200-4R with all the billet pieces. Primarily the forward drum.

Then a 700 built up with all the pieces.

Prices are:
TH400 complete minus converter about $600 in full HD form.
Add $2200 for a GV.

4L80E core is probably $500 if you shop around, then a rebuild about that again, then a computer is $600-700. Total about $1500-2000.
The Transgo manual kit is $200... if you opt for that instead of the 'puter.


TH350 built up is about $500-550
Then add $2200 for GV..


200-4R all billet using a GN core is about $3K plus converter.
It has some neat options though...
Only trans with a 'brake AND full automatic function capability.
A GN core is $600 unless you can find one yourself.
You can skip some billet pieces and build it cheaper though.
You could also use a lesser core if you are going to be manually shifting.
If you go the lesser route about $1500 including good billet drum and good clutches.

700r4 costs about $800-900 and will never be as strong as any of the other options due to the input drum, and buying a newer drum (added to above price) from GM would be a wise investment.


I may have a slightly cheaper option but it depends...
And with your approx HP you would want to buy a billet drum...

</font>

I would shy away from a 400, unless bult up, they have problems. the 4L80 cannot be made to stay on the road with the GNP of several 3rd world countries - thats why it has been shelved in favor of the allison.

350s are pretty generic, you can build one for 500hp for under $300 and do it yourself with kitchen utensils

2004Rs have a lot of perf parts simply because of the GN. but please note, even built, a 2004r is limited to 300-350 ft input torque - invalidating it for most v8s

700s do not need 4l60E planets , just a planet saver thrust washer. they do not need a 13 vane pump, just a 10 vane with chromalloy or titaniaum rings rather than ductile iron. this does not stop many 'performance' shops from putting a 13 vane pump in a pre-93 700 case. the pump housing is different AND the tranny case and valve body passages have thicker walls...when a 13 vane pump slides on an older case it WILL crack and or burst the case.

Your best bet is a 4x4 truck case from 87-up, use the 2wd output shaft and tail, make brackets to accept the strut rods, use a 10 vane pump where applicable, the stock larger bands and the vette servo (so much is made about the vette servo, the cost differential between a stock servo and a vette servo is about $7) convert it to full cooling and full oiling.

I myself am running 3 700R4s, all in long distance mountain towing situations (5000lbs plus). they can tow in overdrive if I wish. to even suggest someone would want to use a 200 is well.....

Hmm,
I've personally built TH400's that work fine behind over 1200 hp using nothing but stock internal parts and good cluthces....
Stock drums, input shafts, planets, etc...
34 element sprag and a sprag type reaction carrier form a 65-66 unit.
No hard parts breakage in 5 years.
Not a lot of problems there.

Yep a pretty good wrencher can build a 500hp capable TH350 in the garage.
Ask Old School on this BB.
I built his..

Also built Mike Hartwells TH350 going behind his 434 SBC in a 67 Chevelle from Team Chevelle.
I built Bob West (Rapid Robert) TH400 in his (soon to be) 10 second Chevelle. Currently running mid 11's but the trans swap and converter change should net 10's.

I built my own Th400 2 years ago. Daily driven, 12 second ride. Haven't touched it since I installed it.

4L60's have been breaking in STOCK vehicles with all the latest mods.
Believe me I was a GM tech for a coupel of years at a dealership (recently).
LOTS of warranty.
I understand some aftermarket mods help, but even in modded form I've seen the results (OFTEN).

The 4L80 IS an expensive proposition, but going fast reliably isn't cheap.
They had some problems with early units and many of these have been worked out. Since they use many of the same hard parts that a Th400 (that will take over 1200 hp) use, they are pretty stout.
With the updates and a controller it is a near bulletproof trans.
HEAVY and $$$ though.

A 200-R4 can be built ot handle a 30,000 lb payload.

Call PTS and talk to Bruce Toelle. He has developed many of the parts to make these trans live in the GN's and conversion well into the 9's.

Go here:
http://www.ptsxtreme.com/

Also might want to check out www.CKperformance.com (http://www.CKperformance.com)

Chris is also an innovator in the trans world and knows his stuff. Very willing to share his knowledge.

Might tell Art Carr of California Performance transmission that his trans will not hold 350 lb ft... or a V8, even in built form.


Almost ready to button my 200-4r up.
Nothing too fancy, good forward drum, GN valve body, billet servo, red clutches and band, shift kit, bigger boost valves.
Otherwise stock parts with a few updates.

Might just have to drop it in the Chevelle behind the 600# tq motor to do some testing and quiet the naysayers.

It will be going behind a 450# 427 BBC anyway.

real interesting reading & opinions.

I too have seen all of the "whiz bang" parts for 700's fail.

I have one of the 'super' input drums modified/treated by an aftermarket company from a 700 on my bench with a LARGE crack around the area near the lugs for the reverse input frictions. That would be the area under the 3/4 apply piston. it's quite thin there

I also have one of the 'whiz band' re-enforced drive shells that has pulled apart where it was factory balanced from engine torque.

The super charged 5.3 & 6.0 truck motors are snaping off the splined end of the input shaft at the O-ring groove inside the converter on the late model 4L65E units. Splines snap off.... the vehicle stops. go figure

I have not seen any one building a billet aluminum drum the for the 700/4L60's yet.

As posted, if you want a tough 2004-r , go see Bruce at PTS in Calliefornia. http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Crosley (edited November 23, 2003).]

hello there this is chris from www.ckperformance.com.thought (http://www.ckperformance.com.thought) you may benefit from some straight forward no nonsense information about the 700r4.there are many drawbacks to this design.the 700r4 uses a compound planetary system with two independent sun gears to provide 4 forward speeds and one reverse.the input member in first gear defies previous gm compound designs by using the sun gear as the driven member .all others use the ring gear for first gear reduction providing first gear ratio through both gear sets multiplying torque and providing reduction..on a 1/2 shift it goes back to the previous designs function by freewheeling the front planet and using the rear sun gear as the held member and the rear ring as the driven member.this scenario with its amount of input and output teeth {ring gear and sungear)will cause a steep rpm drop on a 1/2 ratio change introducing an interesting situation.in order to fully grasp the principle we must first all realize that the higher in the rpm band the engine shows its teeth the more narrower the optimum powerband and usable rpm to accellerate the car becomes.with a steep drop such as this the engine will sit on its ass momentarily until it can ingest enough air and fuel to build enough torque and hpower to accellerate itself.too much of an rpm drop will cause a pressure drop across the intake manifold where the engine will be twittling its thumbs momentarily.the larger the carbuerator ,intake and cylinder head ports are the more aggravated and disrupted airflow into the engine will be.this is even present with a forced induction system although not as bad.why does it work so well in stock applications?who cares,we are looking to win races and accellerate as fast as possible.now ,the other scenario is convertor design ,rear end gear ,and optimum starting line ratio can also be a very difficult task due to the fact that a well build designed convertor with a high k factor becomes useless when the trans has too much gear and not enough in second .this means a convertor that will run the car like a bullet up top will overpower a poorly or even well designed suspension at the starting line.input shaft doesnt like a high torque load either .we have broken a dozen or so and even the torque drive drum has become a useless invention in our mellowest 406 cubic inch small blocks.now the only thing ihave heard about this design that got my attention was it has the direct clutches spinning at engine speed so it is more efficient than a 350 / 400.THIS IS A FAIRY TALE BECAUSE YOU STILL MUST DRIVE THE REVERSE DRUM AGAINST CRANKSHAFT ROTATION IN FIRST ,STOP IT IN SECOND ,AND RUN IT UP WITH THE ENGINE IN THIRD AGAIN.where is this more efficient ?only in the fact that the drum is lighter ,not in the mechanical function.now on the street we have put up to 600 hpower thru these things and they live but in mostly every case overall performance will be gained with transmissions with other ratios regardless of horsepower .it does have its place however,lets look at this .a 3600 lb car will accellerate from a dead stop quicker with a 700r4 until it makes its 1/2 gear change.this same car will accellerate from a dead stop slower with a 2004r or th400 but will shows its teeth in second gear by allowing rpm gain much faster.hydraulically they are ahead of most other previous designs however and is probably one of the best valve body governor combination transmission used by gm. if you want to know what is available for this thing and what is needed at specific hpower levels visit the gm section of www.ckperformance.com.for (http://www.ckperformance.com.for) drag racing this thing is not always a wise decision,and i dont care who builds it.they will live but there are certainly other things more reliable.NOW HEAR THIS ,careful selection of camshaft lca,rear end and torqu convertor can make this unit a real performer but the engine must have a VERY wide power band

;


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the ultimate in drag racing automatics,www.ckperformance.com

and another thing ,we are putting 650 plus horsepower through our 2004rs with our e4340 input drums ,shaft and 6 pinion 2.40 / 1.40 planetaries with trans brake.new product ....................42 element sprag turbo 400 drum with shatterproof race ...

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the ultimate in drag racing automatics,www.ckperformance.com

and another thing ,we are putting 650 plus horsepower through our 2004rs with our e4340 input drums ,shaft and 6 pinion 2.40 / 1.40 planetaries with trans brake.new product ....................42 element sprag turbo 400 drum with shatterproof race ...

------------------
the ultimate in drag racing automatics,www.ckperformance.com

Chris,
Thanks for dropping in.
If you happen to pass through again will you list the GM transmissions in ordewr of preference as far as strength.
Assuming using the best available parts and a proper build.
You can throw the AOD in there too if you want for comparison purposes, since I know you like those...

For others out there who may not know,
Chris has developed updated parts for the Ford AOD to handle more than 1000hp and he seems to like them better than either the 200 or 700.
Something about the ravigneaux planets...

He also has worked with JW to produce an Ultra-Bell to attach the AOD to a Chevy (sacrilege) http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

We go from putting Powerglides behind EVERYTHING to Ford OD's behind Chevys.

World is upside down...

Keep in mind GM was the innovator by being one of the first domestic car companies to put an auto in a passenger car.
The Powerglide was a good trans and ahed of it's time.
The TH400 was the first 3 speed automatic and withstood the test of time.
One of the best trans EVER produced in my opinion.
Works in granmdma's boat, dad's work truck, Johnny's hot rod, and Joe's Monster truck http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

Now GM can't build an automatic to save it's life...

the strongest to the weakest.th400,4l80e,and powerglide will all handle in excess of 2000 horsepower when built with our e4340 parts.the ford aod with jw gm ultra bell will handle over 1000 horsepower ,the 2004r about 650 horsepower ,and the 700r4 in excess of 550 horsepower.these are of course including a built in safety margin.we are currently going into production on a complete steel forward drum for the 700r4 and will be working on reducing the gear ratio .this is very complicated due to internal dimensions

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the ultimate in drag racing automatics,www.ckperformance.com

Im not saying you cant build the 200 up and get a few passes out of it, but keep in mind, the 200 is GMs weakest 4 speed tranny. It has been out of print for nearly 14 years for good reason....while 700R4s were dying behind 300hp 350's and 245hp big blocks in stock trucks, the 2004Rs were failing behind 105-110hp A-code V6's and 140hp Y code V8s.. Only by the grace of the GN did a 200 ever get any uprated parts.

The only hard fault we can really give a 700 is the mechanically formed drum that cracks on the lip, just using a hardened part gets over that, gettingthe GM titanium one is what, $400-500? When you add to that the cost of the best rebuild kit of $250, its pretty cheap compared to everything needed for a 200 - its own drum, the hardened shafts/splines, clutch piston, reaction shells... the cost goes over $1500 easy and its STILL a smaller tranny...

quaddriver,
Since you are the expert here you tell me WHEN did they EVER install a 700R4/4L60 behind any big block?

Didn't happen...

visit www.turbobuick.com (http://www.turbobuick.com) and look in the transmission talk section. it seems you havent heard about the engineering feats i as well as others have accomplished for the 2004r.this trans will take a whooping and still prove its ability to stand on its pan bolts.forget the gn coded bq,br and the ss coded cq and cz.they still have the flaws ,theonly problem now is keeping up with the demand for them.i never heard of a gm input drum for the 700r4?got a part number?

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the ultimate in drag racing automatics,www.ckperformance.com

hey jake ,nice to see you have heard of us.many people just dont know because we are not a mass producing hot dog company.thanks and good luck.

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the ultimate in drag racing automatics,www.ckperformance.com

Chris,
You probably forgot me now but I've ordered a few parts here and there for various builds.

Although I have some differences in opinion on some of your theories (Type F vs. Dexron) , I know you are an excellent builder and innovator on these things.

I also agree with many of your techniques (shift quality, etc..)


I don't just believe stuff because of the trends.
Just because a 700 is the msot popular thing going doesn't mean it's the best.

I don't make any money for my opinions, just build a better unit.

I did ALOT of research on this subject over the last few years, observations, testing, building, different ideas and learned ALOT.
Still learning.

After thoroughly researching I selected a 200.
Doesn't mean everybody has to run one.
Just what I would (and did) pick for myself as a builder.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by jakeshoe:
quaddriver,
Since you are the expert here you tell me WHEN did they EVER install a 700R4/4L60 behind any big block?

Didn't happen...

</font>

For starters...the 88-91? 92? SS 454 truck used a 700R4, next, the 700R4/4L60 is certified (internal certification thru GM) for trucks up to 8600lb GVWR, which of course includes the C/K2500 with the 7.4L (454) engine.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by chris718:
i never heard of a gm input drum for the 700r4?got a part number?

[/B]</font>

Working on it. Goodwrench Performance parts does not list individual parts online it seems, gonna have to wait till I get to my 'paper' catalog at home.

In the meantime, if you are an ATRA member, try Recon at 1-800-999-5590. All the 'hardened' parts avail for a 700 are also avail for a 200 and vice versa. 700 complete kit cost: appx 800 (I said 750), 200 complete kit cost: appx 2000 (I said 1500) so I am guilty of being a bit low.

But please note, after installation they STILL insist the 200 be held to about 1/2-3/4 of what a 700 can take.

No slight intended, but I think I have to side with the engineers at powertrain...

quaddriver,
You need to check your sources./
The 454 SS trucks were produced from 1990-1994.
In 1990 they had a Th400.
In 1991-1994 they had a 4L80-E.

The trans MAY be rated for 8600 lbs but it was NEVER installed from the factory behind a 7.4L.

The closest thing I can think of they installed it behind was a 6.2L diesel in Suburbans circa 1984...
They had LOTS of problems with them in these.

And a few links:

(please note I have selected a few nationally known builders with web pages detailing product offerings. The builder I use (and am personally friends with - and who is on the design team for GM and Chrysler)for example does not have a webpage (I dont think he even has a computer with online capability) but builds for nearly every ranked strip and circle track driver in central PA)

http://www.bteracing.com/ (not a 200 in the bunch even OFFERED)

http://www.eastcoasttransmissions.com ditto

http://www.hughesperformance.com/ ditto

http://www.auto2000.com/jw/ no overdrive units at all.

http://www.api-racing.com Note the use of 3 and 4 planet gear sets. Makes the 5 planet gearset discussion moot.

A quote from Art Carr:

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Which transmission is better, the 700R4 or the 2004R?

Both transmissions, made for General Motors vehicles, have been adapted into a great variety of high performance applications. The 700R4 is a little better for heavier cars. It has a lower first and second than the 2004R. The 2004R is primarily for lighter cars and has a gear set that is higher in low and second. The 700R4 is a lower gear overdrive than the 2004R. In essence the 2004R is a closer ratio transmission than the 700R4.</font>

and

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">How much power will an Art Carr overdrive transmission handle?

Art Carr transmissions will handle substantial horsepower. The Art Carr built General Motors transmissions including the 7004R, 4L80E and 2004R will handle 800, 1200, and 800 respectively. The Ford AOD/AODE can be expected to handle a solid 800+ horsepower. These are purpose built transmissions with a lot of internal parts specially built by Art Carr Performance. The horsepower rating is important, but equally important is the torque the engine produces and what RPM the torque is produced at.
</font>

and the hard parts needed to get a 700 to 600ftlb (which would translate to in excess of 800hp)

http://www.usatransdoctor.com/Torque%20Drive.htm

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by jakeshoe:
quaddriver,
You need to check your sources./
The 454 SS trucks were produced from 1990-1994.
In 1990 they had a Th400.
In 1991-1994 they had a 4L80-E.

The trans MAY be rated for 8600 lbs but it was NEVER installed from the factory behind a 7.4L.

The closest thing I can think of they installed it behind was a 6.2L diesel in Suburbans circa 1984...
They had LOTS of problems with them in these.

</font>

Are you using this reference chart from NATC?

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">400 and 4L80E transmission
Transmission Model Automatic 3 speed 400 Automatic 4 speed w/overdrive 4L80E
RPO Code MX1 MX0
First 2.48 3.06
second 1.48 1.63
Third 1.00 1.00
Fourth - .70
Gear Type Planetary Planetary
Element Types Pump/Stator/Turbine Pump/Stator/Turbine
Lock Up Clutch - Automatic
Dry Fill 20 19
Refill 5 10

</font>

(I apologize for the lack of formatting)

Please note that that NATC has identified the 4L60/700 as a 4L80, but has listed the 4L60 gear ratios and RPO code. The 4L80 has the game gear ratios as the 400, save OD.

Yes, the 4L80 was avail as an option in 91, but previously the only 4spd was the 4L60

Its not hard to cruise the boneyards and find 'modern'(1988-1998) C/K trucks with 4L60 units (1988-1990 specifically), 91-98 sporadically.

OK,
A couple of things to add here..
Art Carr is of California Performance Transmission now.
NOT ART CARR in Abiline TX...

So which website did that quote come from...? http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

The Abilene TX facility bought the right to the name in the past and has seriously detrimented the name of the the "Real" Art Carr who has reopened business in Huntington Beach CA.

Even the "REAL" Art Carr uses a somewhat weak drum on his 200-4R builds. it is a stock drum, reinforced, and heat treated...
Not a billet shaft unit like PTS and CK performance sell...

The last link you provided...
I already posted that link under a different name...
TorqueDriveEngineeing makes that drum, as I've already provided that information.

Chris builds 700's and has used their products.
Care to post pics of the end results Chris?
http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif
Seems I may know something you aren't aware of here quaddriver....

BTE is a very good converter company...

Just because they don't offer a 200 doesn't mean much, as I said there are few builders who are comfortable with them, because parts must be courced from sleect vendors to make one livce and they aren't cheap.
There are no $40 billet Servos for a 200..

I only know of two places that have the billet forward drum for the 200.
Others resale for these two guys,
They are Bruce at PTS and Chris at CKperformance.
I believe Bruce has a patent on his version of the drum, specifically they way it is fused to the drum itself.
No "sleeve" top support it.

By the way if you need to verify my info on the 4L60/4L60-E not be factory installed in the SS 454 trucks, PLEASE go to www.SS454.com (http://www.SS454.com)
Those guys can give you a knowledgeable answer.

As far as the 700 being better in a heavy car,
it would be in a street application with a mild mannered motor that has a wide torque curve.
The lower gearing will help the heavy car get moving easier.
But in a drag racing scenario with slicks, big converter, and a motor with a more peaky curve, the 700 would be more likely to blow the tires off the car at the launch, big drop going into 2nd will kill the motor as Chris covered.

Your source is obviously incorrect as they have 2 transmissions confused.

You can scour all the wrekcing yards you want looking to see if a 4L60 was behind a 7.4L.
As a GM Tech I can tell you it didn't happen.

I HAVE seen 3/4 tons with a 5.7L and a 4L60E.
I know of one right now I can show you. But it ain't a 7.4L...

Now we ARE talking about SS 454 trucks here right,
Since we KNOW they have a BBC factory installed.
In 1991-1994 there was no option, it was a 4L80-E in those trucks.
In 1990 it was ONLY available with a 400.
Tell me WHY would GM put ONLY these trans behind a 454 in a HALF-TON pickup and not in a truck with a higher load capacity?

The 454 motor in the SS trucks was basically a stock TBI motor as installed in a 1 ton, not really any major performance upgrades...

Yes I KNOW the 4L60 4L60-E was installed in C/K trucks from 1988-1998 and newer.
But only behind a small block http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

Also,
I thought your "source" was GM Powertrain...
What happened, why are we using NATC now?

http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

If you are planning on using any GM on the track only, go with the 400. The cost and strength are unbeatable. If you are going for street use, go with the 200 R4. With the benefits of even gear spacing,.67 O/D 4th, and buildable strength, these units are unbeatable for street driven GM's. We have units running in the 1200 HP area without any problems. The amount of billet components the owner of PTS has developed and tested have made this all possible. A well built 200 4R will run you about twice that of a well built TH400, but your gear ratios and the added gear makes the 200 4R the choice of people running low et street cars and hot rodders alike. It adds to drivability and longivity of your cars engine. As far as a 700 goes, I personaly feel they have way to many inherent design failings to make it even in the class of a TH400 or the 200 4R.

Mark

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by jakeshoe:
Also,
I thought your "source" was GM Powertrain...
What happened, why are we using NATC now?

http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif</font>

'Powertrain's' online site does not include any legacy information. But also as a gm tech, I assure you, the standard automatic transmission with overdrive was and is the 4L60, any engine, under 8600gvwr. Just look in your handy dandy RPO guide or find an older copy of the yearly 'Chevrolet guide to towing'

But since we are on this topic...something I noticed...if anyone truly did have a "600 hp" motor, not only

a) it would not be streetable
it would also
b) not be street legal in any 600hp trim

I dont think gas mileage would be a factor either, the mods needed to get say over 500hp on a SBC and 600hp on a BBC would preclude the motor from being used anywhere near a street except to drive it up on the trailer. Please note the 1-2 gear drop is about exactly the same as a 1.82 'glide drop. The glide of course being preferred on motors that are REAL peaky ;-)

Translated into real world: a 500hp SBC or 600hp+ BBC is going to require rpms in the 7000 range assuming naturally aspirated (or more) the 1-2 shift on a 700 will put the rpms (at least - there is still some converter slip) at 3800ish - well above stall of any converter. On a glide - 3850

by contrast a 2004r will be 4000ish. Is anyone SERIOUSLY claiming that the 200rpm difference more than offsets the 12% greater torque advantage the 700 has in first and the 4% greater advantage it has in second? (not to mention, lb for lb, motor for motor, the 700 equipped car has already shifted to second and continued accelerating with greater mechanical advantage before the 200 equipped car has even left first gear) not to mention, Im willing to bet that at no point along the dyno proven torque curve of any non diesel motor is the difference in torque greater than 12% for any 200rpm interval. Long point short: at those hp ranges no one actually making those power numbers (or above) even consider 4speeds, and in many case neither do they at times consider 3 speeds.

At any rate, I stand on my original point...the 200 is GMs weakest OD transmission, designed for v6 engines and small low heat v8s. (in other words low hp engines with narrow powerbands) It was abandoned by hydramatic (now part of powertrain - at least the part not sold to chrysler) appx 14 years ago for good reason. You can improve the parts inside a 200 for great cost. This makes no sense as you can improve the parts inside a 700 for less cost and have more capability. In the same vein, we can also heat treat the gears from gms 7.5" rearend and use them. why dont we? smaller is better right?

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by jakeshoe:
Your source is obviously incorrect as they have 2 transmissions confused.

You can scour all the wrekcing yards you want looking to see if a 4L60 was behind a 7.4L.
As a GM Tech I can tell you it didn't happen.

I HAVE seen 3/4 tons with a 5.7L and a 4L60E.
I know of one right now I can show you. But it ain't a 7.4L...

</font>

A TRUE GM tech that is NOT in the Detroit area??? Sorry, I live in the Motor City area and see stuff most people wont see for years to come...

Granted 600 crank hp is not common, but surely you have heard of John Lingenfelter.

He often provides corvettes with 500 rear wheel hp, complete driveablity, emission legal. He is one of the top street engine builders in the USA

I am not going to jump in on this pisssin match where there is some good inforamtion along with serious mis-information.

This reminds me of a discussion I got into with a young lad about gear ratios in a T-400. He said they were different in an Australian built T-400 (they are not). He was quoting a web site with bogus info.

Since I started on automatics in the 1970's I guess I am in my 4th decade of working with these slush boxes. I still learn something new every week, problem is I probably forget 2 things.. http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

I look forward to the new steel 700r4 drum Chris is talking about. new parts always grab my interest.

FWIW.... I work for Hughes Performance in Az. Been there several years, delt with them since the 1970's when I owned my own shop.



------------------
Tony

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">
I am not going to jump in on this pisssin match </font>

Oh heck this aint a pissin match! Pissin matches are where someone calls one person Hitler and says they hate puppies.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">
Granted 600 crank hp is not common, but surely you have heard of John Lingenfelter.

He often provides corvettes with 500 rear wheel hp, complete driveablity, emission legal. He is one of the top street engine builders in the USA]</font>

I usually expect 1-1.1hp per inch from John on his naturally aspirated motors and he does not disappoint. I think he has a 454 inch "LS1" right now...however, anything more and he has one of his famous whipple-charger setups going.

However, on the cars he builds with automatics...3 guesses as to what sits behind the flexplate...

GM has made some bizarre moves (the Aztek, 3.4L 24v V6, oil filter in the pan of the Iron Duck, &c) but they have also made some great moves (the 3800, reverse cooling, and deciding which powertrain options needed to survive thru the 90's into the 2000's)

When faced with choosing what tranny was to survive the budget axe, weighing in historical failure rates, MDSS's &c, and having the LT1 pre production, the LS1 prototyped and on paper, the Vortecs running around at milford, 'tow wars', and severe increased marketing pressure during the 90's...GM did the right thing.

I think GM would be light years ahead IF they would develop a more bulletproof input for the 4L60...

They hold up marginally well behind say a LS6 in the Vette's BUT..
If they made a good input for this trans they could get rid of the 4L80-E and only use the 4L60.
That is assuming they would get their sun shells fixed (use aftermarket...)


No pissing match here,
I have invited two of the (what I would consider) BEST tranny guys in the country here.
Chris from CK performance and Bruce from PTS.
Mark responded concerning PTS's results with the 200.

As far as cost goes,
A 200 is really not that much more if any when you weigh out everything.

The hardened sun shell is $15, the new hardened stator is $13, 10 or 13 vane pump kit with hardened rings is $25-30. The billet drum is $400 or a little more, call it $500 if you want.
Rebuild kit cost the same more or less.
The billet servo is more at about $100 for a Superior unit, although a GN or a 200 servo (Chris's preferred piece), can be had for $5-50.

All in all you can build a STOUT 200 for a say high 11 second ride with nothing real fancy.

Then you can use your existing TH350, Glide, 4 speed driveshaft...

Building a good pump costs the same for either trans, band cost the same, rebuild kit cost the same, setting up TV system in conversion is the same, converters would be around the same, actual build cost should be very similar, cores for either can be had for virtually nothing.

So the big difference is the billet pieces required. The only REQUIRED piece (for my own comfort to warranty) would be the forward drum on a 200.

On a 700 it would have to have a aftermarket sun shell, as well as all the other mods more or less common to both
Then I would still not want to bet on the input drum issue as far as warranty goes.

Now when a real solution to this presents itself, then we can deal with a 700.

But it will still require driveline mods, etc...

In reality the cost is almost the same either way you go.

You can say that a 700 will have shifted into 2nd quicker than a 200 but it doesn't do any good if it is spinning off the line...

And yes 600 hp can be had in a streetable NA BBC combo that runs on pump gas and is not trailered http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif
Especially with an OD trans...
It can be had using door stop heads too http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

Not hard to get 600 hp from a 500 cube motor that idles decent and with les than 10.5-1 compression.

GM does it with the 502...

Crosley,
if you are a builder speak your mind as far as strengths and weakness' go.

And also post what you believe to be mis-information...

There is definitely some here...
Probably not intentional but it is here..

How about this...

WHO is the premier 700/4L60 builder in the country?

Maybe we can talk them into going head to head against either of the builders I invited and see who's will fail first on a load test. http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

I'd love to do it.

I think it would have some interesting results and dispell some misbeliefs.

I also think that these builders have already done it... http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

As in GM Master Certified Technician.
I was a servie tech at a GM delaership until about 6 months ago when I moved on to bigger and better things...

Keep in mind GM has Techs all over the place, as in actual engineering techs.
They have testing facilities in Arizona for one...

Also might be good to add that both Bruce at PTS and Chris have worked with GM on the design end of these trans.
They have inside connections.

And there is still trans being used that uses pieces from the 200-4R design.
It's an automatic designed by GM but used in a European luxury car...

Premier builder? interesting question.

By premier do you mean function or how long the tranny lives?

there are many folks that build trannys to close specs. Some specs are factory , some are from years of learning.

Parts breakage is just that , a part fails. Several companies have stronger parts offered for the 700/4L60's. As I mentioned I have a few hi-tech parts sitting on my bench that are broken. All of the broken parts have been in NOS or super charger applications

If you put enough power into a 700 and have some traction something will break sooner or later.

At Hughes we manufacture many parts and gears for the powerglide. We use hi-tech metals, use special heat treating methods and we cryogenic treat stuff too.

Who knew years ago we would putting 2,000 hp through a glide in a heavy monster truck?

The mis-information I was looking at was OE applications for the trannys. Never seen a 4l60 behind a big block , as pointed out.

Gm did install the 4L60E in 3/4 ton trucks. I've worked on several. They all have the vette style servo too.

Gm does have a small testing grounds here in AZ. http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif We have worked with them on some projects in the past. My manager knows some the engineers there since he worked at the proving grounds years ago. A friend of mine ran the tranny group at the proving grounds years ago. Ed worked with the developement the 200-4r tranny

My point being we have a few connections and a little bit of knowledge on trannys.

"If I am a builder?" ...LOL 3/4 of the trannys that go out the door at Hughes are built by me or the poeple I trained.

Chris, I talked to Jeff Hughes this AM about your steel drum for the 700. Jeff does all the R&D work at Hughes from parts to the aluminum pans we manufacture. We like to look at new parts people develope and look forward in 2004 to check out your stuff.

Jeff then explained his design on a new drum for the 700 to me. It would be aluminum and reconfigured for a better 3/4 clutch pack and apply piston. I cannot discuss his idea of the input shaft ,but I was surprised by his idea.


We have looked at Bruces stuff. It is top shelf! We do not get amny calls for 200-4r trannys. Probably because of the reputations some of these guys have with the tranny.

------------------
Tony

[This message has been edited by Crosley (edited November 25, 2003).]

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">The mis-information I was looking at was OE applications for the trannys. Never seen a 4l60 behind a big block , as pointed out.

Gm did install the 4L60E in 3/4 ton trucks. I've worked on several. They all have the vette style servo too.
</font>

I know I mentioned at some point for people to find the "chevrolet guide to towing" (aka in later years the "chevrolet trailering guide")

in 1990 for example, the C1500, C/K2500 and the C/K3500 with Z82 trailering package, VO5 cooling, KC4 cooling. GT4 (3.73) axle ratio and MX0 trans (the 700/4L60) were all available with the 7.4LV8 (aka a "big block")

No offense, but I dont give such info for my health. the aforementioned publications were GMs answer to fords "Light truck application guide" and listed, for the model year, in many cases by region or emmissions certification, the part combos available.

When you meet the 'need-5-cars-for-my-quota-salesman' who tells you that yes, the 2.8 S10 can indeed tow your 22fter, you had best be wearing out the pages of this guide or caveat emptor. It is the ONLY consumer (or should I saw was, its not clear GM publishes it anymore - no dealer around here has them) guide to what parts combinations are sold and in most cases surpasses what the sales manager knows.

Of course the coup de grace is simple: nearly two years ago I got my K2500 from a guy who had 2 for sale: both red, long bed, autos (both 700's), one had the original 454 in it, the other had a factory H code replaced with a high output jasper 350, making it in effect a curiously peppy K code. I bought the latter for a song.

Please note, in 1990 the MAXIMUM trailer rating was acheived with the use of the MX1 tramission (thm400) and the GT5 (4.10) axle. The point never was: 'what was the maximum trailer rating?', the point was the combo did exist (and in fact, until 2-3 years ago still existed, when the 6.0 "LS1" came out - making it the largest engine in the 8600lb class, the 4L60E was the standard tranny - I beleive 2 of them are located at Schwen Camper and Marine sales in Clarion PA used as work trucks.)

Crosley,
After rereading your earlier post I realized you were obviously a builder... http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

It is my understanding that now ALL GM trucks using the 4L60-E use the "Vette" servo.
This might apply to only full size trucks.
My GM connection mentioned this to me.

As I've stated I am only a self taught builder that does it as a side "hobby".
Makes me a little cash sometimes to fund my projects.
Since I am in this to not do huge warranty, or spend a large amount of time doing warranty I stay away from the 700's.
Not that they can't be made to work up to a certain level, but most of what I build is borderline or above this level.
So I usually stick with TH350's and 400's, an occasional oddball, and recently the 200-4R's.

Actually finished mine today except for the pressure switch for the converter lockup and the pickup system I will be fabricating to prevent cavitation.

I don't have the facilities or connections to mess with fabricating complex parts but the key here is I know where to find them http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif
And know what works.

I guess I'll just say,
whatever you decide on good luck with it.

Pics of my ride with a weakling 200-4R behind a 600+ lb ft motor coming soon http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

This has been an entertaining, occasionally irritating, thread. It seems to be coming down to the "700 Vs. 200" debate I see elsewhere. If it works for you , great! If you're looking to buy a new tranny, do a lot of research and pay attention to who is bringing good tech versus who going by their own (limited) experiance with one trans. I've already made up my mind(no I'm not telling, it dosen't matter), but it was MY decision and made with open eyes.

You all can argue all you want, and there has been some excellant tech info-you will never show the other person that they're "wrong". Differant horses for differant courses.

I'm not saying which side I think is "right", but I do know who has brought the best info.

I really liked the statement "400's, unless built up, have problems." Kinda goes against 40 years of evidence. See my point?

Oh, and for the statement "cruise control at 150"? Right. If it's true, Darwin missed.

Just my $.02, and it's worth what you paid for it.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">I really liked the statement "400's, unless built up, have problems." Kinda goes against 40 years of evidence. See my point?

</font>

Like the case bushing that walks out of the bore under high torque loads leaving the shaft unsupported?

Like the intermediate sprag that goes under heavy loads and is the single most popular point of failure?

Like the case lugs that hold the 2nd gear clutch snap ring and break under heavy loads?, who when they break ruin the entire assembly for further use?

40 years of well documented evidence no? Not that high hp motors and the use in drag racing would be of any interest to anyone here right? http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

Everything to fix the 400's common problems is fairly cheap, easy and available.

yes they have weak points as does every other trans.

The rear case bushing can be replaced with a bushing that does not walk, the 4L80's use it. Simple. Or just stake the stock one.

Seesm the 700's had a problem with the PUMP bushing walking out....

The intermediate sprag issue is easily resolved by using a 34 elemnet unit, properly prepping the race, and not using a BANG shift kit.

How 'bout them forward sprags in the 700's?

The intermediate snap ring that can blow out of a 400 needs to be replaced with a heavy duty part, one from a 727 or (how about this) 200-4R works well.

This is caused by exceesive pressure that is usually unnecessary.
Even if it DOES blow out the case can be reused http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif
Just have to know how...

The same way you can fix this problem can be used to prevent it.

Costs about $5, the bushing from the rear costs about $8, and the intermediate sprag costs $50...

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by jakeshoe:
Everything to fix the 400's common problems is fairly cheap, easy and available.

yes they have weak points as does every other trans.

The rear case bushing can be replaced with a bushing that does not walk, the 4L80's use it. Simple. Or just stake the stock one.

Seesm the 700's had a problem with the PUMP bushing walking out....

The intermediate sprag issue is easily resolved by using a 34 elemnet unit, properly prepping the race, and not using a BANG shift kit.

How 'bout them forward sprags in the 700's?

The intermediate snap ring that can blow out of a 400 needs to be replaced with a heavy duty part, one from a 727 or (how about this) 200-4R works well.

This is caused by exceesive pressure that is usually unnecessary.
Even if it DOES blow out the case can be reused http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif
Just have to know how...

The same way you can fix this problem can be used to prevent it.

Costs about $5, the bushing from the rear costs about $8, and the intermediate sprag costs $50...

</font>

EXACTLY my point...

when used as installed, the 400 will last for years and years (it took 120K miles for the 400 in my 69 225 with a 430 to bite it, and this was nearly 20 years ago)

but when used and abused, a 400 will break as easy under its intended loads as will a lessor tranny (i.e. those with GNs might be using a 200, but those with big blocks any make are probly using a 400)

And whereas the parts are indeed cheap, the act of getting the unit out, changing the parts and putting the unit back in, is of great cost compared to the parts - or in other words not as trivial as a fluid change.

It almosts seems at times that some posters want to declare their tranny 'ready to go AS-IS' And I dispute that claim in all cases.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by quaddriver:
Like the case bushing that walks out of the bore under high torque loads leaving the shaft unsupported?

Like the intermediate sprag that goes under heavy loads and is the single most popular point of failure?

Like the case lugs that hold the 2nd gear clutch snap ring and break under heavy loads?, who when they break ruin the entire assembly for further use?

40 years of well documented evidence no? Not that high hp motors and the use in drag racing would be of any interest to anyone here right? http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

</font>

And just how many service bulletins have been written for the 700? Are you honestly trying to suggest the 700's rep is as good as the 400's for high performance usage? How many...nevermind. Quaddriver, I have to ask, what IS your point? That the 700 is better than every other option? Stronger than a built up 200r4? Able to leap tall buildings? You don't need to run down other peoples accomplishments with other trannys to make the point that a 700 is a good trans for certain uses. You seem convinced that the 700 is everyones best option. I just don't see it that way. Sorry. I wish you continued luck with the 700.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by quaddriver:
EXACTLY my point...

when used as installed, the 400 will last for years and years (it took 120K miles for the 400 in my 69 225 with a 430 to bite it, and this was nearly 20 years ago)

but when used and abused, a 400 will break as easy under its intended loads as will a lessor tranny (i.e. those with GNs might be using a 200, but those with big blocks any make are probly using a 400)

And whereas the parts are indeed cheap, the act of getting the unit out, changing the parts and putting the unit back in, is of great cost compared to the parts - or in other words not as trivial as a fluid change.

It almosts seems at times that some posters want to declare their tranny 'ready to go AS-IS' And I dispute that claim in all cases.

</font>

I missed it somehow, what IS your point? Gn's that break 200's don't go to a 700, they go to a 400 or glide. Can ANYONE build a 700 for 1000 HP? 400's and glides can be built for it. Go to an Impalass board, see how many 4l60e problems are there. Are you argueing just to argue?

I CERTAINLY didn't think the point here was to install a wrecking yard or SERTA unit into anybobies vehicle.
That must be what some are suggesting...

We (I anyway) are talking about built units using the best available parts.

I'm not expecting to go to a wrecking yard, get a greasy ole TH400 and install it behind a fresh 500 cid motor and expect it to live.

But if we were betting...

And we were picking wrecking yard units,
I would BET that the 400 would live longer than any other unit in completely stock boneyard form http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

Interesting that this discussion has pulled in more than one transmission tech, and resident experts from both CKperformance and Hughes.

I'm surprised that with what appears to be the level of disagreement here that things haven't gone totally sideways- good job keeping things as polite as they have been (for the most part).

With all that's been said- I think a couple of points are worth mentioning in respect to "information" coming from publications, in this case those put out by GM and/or it's divisions: Stuff gets published all the time, but this doesn't mean it actually happens or happened- as an example- 1970 Camaro adverts stated that you could order a 454 BB- never happened, GM pulled the option after the documentation was printed. I have seen both GM and ATSG publications that have parts breakdowns on TH-350's and TH-350C's (combined manuals) that clearly show a picture and part numbers for a TH-350C with no notes on differences in respect to the TH-350, despite the fact these differences do exist and the manual glossing over this in what are supposed to be technical manuals is just flat-out inaccurate. The point- everything we see on paper cannot necessarily be trusted 100%.

Personally, I'll take the educated opinion of those here who have basically said the 700 cannot be built to the same standard as the 200-4R unless new parts are developed- the opinion being those from people who have built hundreds or thousands of transmissions and have virtually nothing to gain by making things up. Maybe, if I'm the only guy on Earth with a 'built' 700 taking 650ft-lbs and hooking up consistently and having it last for years I might think the "experts" are off on this- but I might also be the one-in-a-very-few who just plain "got lucky".

there are alot of people on here who Jakeshoe has give sound advice to and he has a stand up reputation. this is not a good way to make a first impression.

[This message has been edited by cycowrencher for civility(edited November 26, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by cycowrencher (edited November 26, 2003).]

Lest I give the wrong vibe here-
1. Jakeshoe has been VERY patient and civil in this conversation-much better than anyone can reasonably expect. Sorry if I have not been.
2. For the record, my responses have not been aimed at anyones personality-just some of the "facts" presented.
3. Again, a tranny purchase is a major investment-go in with your eyes OPEN.
4. I'll go with the experts on this whole subject. As I say, I've already made my decision.
-On edit- I see I'm not the only newbie here!

[This message has been edited by Q-ship (edited November 26, 2003).]

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Q-ship:
And just how many service bulletins have been written for the 700? Are you honestly trying to suggest the 700's rep is as good as the 400's for high performance usage? How many...nevermind. Quaddriver, I have to ask, what IS your point? That the 700 is better than every other option? Stronger than a built up 200r4? Able to leap tall buildings? You don't need to run down other peoples accomplishments with other trannys to make the point that a 700 is a good trans for certain uses. You seem convinced that the 700 is everyones best option. I just don't see it that way. Sorry. I wish you continued luck with the 700.</font>

no, my point remains today the same it was on my first post: in stock form, the 200 is weaker duty than the 700 - no one disputes that, especially not the maker. In built up form, the same relationship holds, and as everyone has pointed out, the 700 is cheaper to build up to that point.

As I tried pointing out in an intermediate post, those that TRULY have the big buck big HP motors dont even begin to consider an OD unit in any case (no pun intended)

I never once disputed the fact that some people have strong 200's with whizbang internal parts. But I have questioned the fact that if someone spends countless dollars and days on the motor, why then would the tranny question even be a question: run with what you brung (in 95% of all cases the 700) and spend the same due dilligence inside.

Someone in a post mentioned John Lingenfelters name. And I asked not quite so rhetorically exactly what tranny HE chooses to run behind his engines (if in fact auto equipped)

I guess it all boils down to a line uttered by Jeff Goldblum in Jurrasic park: "everyone was so concerned seeing if they COULD do it, that no one asked if they SHOULD do it"

In the street/strip racing world, there are no warranties, expressed or implied. In fact, it is often mentioned that if a unit is used for racing, the warranty is void. So it becomes a question of what you are comfy with. The only vehicles I have ever raced with have had properly prepped 350/400 units when auto equipped. So the OD question never came to play - would I have liked an OD gear in a door slammer to save a few bucks in gas on the 98% usage known as 'street driving'? yep but at some point overall cost and common sense have to come to play, as well as dumb luck.

However in the real world, which is where I dedicate nearly all of my time and energy to, there are millions, yes millions of users who do silly things like tow boats(and race cars) up hills with gasoline engines. If I go pick up 1 car at carlisle and travel the 200 miles to my shop, I will stress every part more and create more heat in one of my 700s than a lifetime of passes will put on a few select parts on a 200...and I am but one of millions. What works well in the real world will work wonders in the play world.

As I said, perhaps 4 times now, there is good reason the maker (GM) abandoned the 200 unit. Someone has more than once mentioned bandaids...doing the work needed to make a 200 perform as required is indeed a bandaid itself, especially when the remaining commercially available alternate units are better than the 200 out of the box, and better than the 200 when modified.

Yes I realize some people have careers based on making the 200 acceptable - thats fine and I do not impugn that at all. But it is no different than making a career out of say 'making a K car attractive - in both cases it is taking the time and money to make a marginal, if in fact at all desirable, product attractive to the public.

In closing, at no time did I ever say none of these dogs do not have thier own fleas, but I have said that some flea problems are easier to get rid of than others.

This thread was never really about stock transmissions.

We're talking about built units.

GM hasn't completely abandoned the 200-4R design. http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif
They are still producing a trans that shares many internal parts. Just not in the domestic market.

I will agree with you on one point.
The daily driving duties imposed on a trans are harder to build for than a drag racing unit.
A drag race trans goes 1-2-3 and that is all, it just has to be able to survive a WOT upshift and load for 1/4 at a time.

A daily driven street unit must be built to handle this, as well as stop and go traffic, manually and automatic downshifts (the REAL killer on many trans, unknown to most), and must have proper shift timing at all throttle positions.

So you can't just "design" a shift kit to work on the drag strip well and expect it to work on the street.
Different set of parameters.

There REALLY is much more to designing/building a trans for street duty.
I'd say mostly shif timing issues.

I will also agree that the typical enthusiast will spend $800-1000 on a 700 and it will work fine in the "typical enthusiasts vehicle.
This would be a 350-383 SBC with a Performer or RPM intake, cheap set of headers, stock 3.08-3.42 rear gears, 9-9.5-1 compression.

For the hard core enthusiast that will drive a hard hitting car on the street.

We're talking for example a 3800 lb muscle car with a 500+ cubic inch, roller cammed, 10-1 compression motor that makes well in excess of 500lb ft of torque from idle to 6000 rpm.
An engine capable of ripping axles apart, etc...

The real key here is behind such a motor a 700 WILL work, but as soon as you bolt a set of slicks to it and get it to flat hook, expect broken parts.
Maybe not the first pass, or the 2nd.
But in time...
And sooner than any other option.

USUALLY such a ride would be a dedicated strip car, but some will build it to idle smoothly, and with streetable manners and want the pleasant driving only an OD can provide.

I'm out to build a LOW 10 second ride that idles smooth, NO power adder, A/C, and OD.

Almost ready to install the motor and trans. http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

We already know what I selected...

Also...
I WOULD build a 700 for a mild driver, I have in the past, for myself and friends.

My description of a mild driver is less than 400-450 hp... And little or no dragstrip duty.

I never said it wouldn't work in ANY application.

I also agree with Chris that some of these builders are overrating them.

I also will say that the pieces from PTS or CK are NOT band-aids.
These are extremly high quality billet parts.
They will fix breakage problems.

I am REALLY surprised that the 700 has been around this long as has been the preffered OD swap candidate and the aftermarket hasn't developed a better input drum.

There IS a demand for it.

Most builders are more comfortable with it because they have built a gazillion of them...

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by jakeshoe:


We're talking for example a 3800 lb muscle car with a 500+ cubic inch, roller cammed, 10-1 compression motor that makes well in excess of 500lb ft of torque from idle to 6000 rpm.
An engine capable of ripping axles apart, etc...

</font>

How about a little digression for a moment....completely off topic - I promise!

didja know...

that for a gasoline powered motor (any grade, the BTU/lb content of 87 octane up to "whatever" race gas is about the same) with spark ignition, horsepower can be expressed as:

Hp = Ap * CR * VE * Cid * RPM / 5252 /150.8

where Ap = atmostpheric pressure in lbs of where you are testing at

CR = compression ratio expressed in postive numbers, like 9.2, 10.5 etc

VE = volumetric efficiency of the motor [1] as measured at the target RPM

Cid = well, yanno

Since we also know that HP = T *RPM / 5252

(where T = torque)

then we can algabrailcally deduce that T = Ap * CR * VE * CID /150.8

In other words, Torque is always fixed for a given motor[2]. The normalizing contstant of 150.8 takes into account various average losses.

Ever wonder how 'desktop dyno' works? well now you know. Courtesy of Mr EdelBrock and Mr Lingenfelter, I have given away all the secrets (I also once went thru the proof of the formula, which requires more symbols than UBB code will allow lol)

Everyone should be able to write a little xml or java script and put a 'web-top dyno' on their webpage

Please note, if you add a x-charger, it messes up the Ap calculation because the inlet air pressre is no longer a constant, messing up also the VE number.

Also of note, didja know that simply using your trap speed and race weight you can deduce Hp? Using a modification of a formula I found on Edelbrocks website 6+ years ago....

Trap speed = 235 * (hp/weight)^^1/3 (or in other words, trap speed in miles per hour is equal to 235 times the cubed root of hp over weight), or solving for hp,

hp = (trap/235)^^3 * W (trap over 235 cubed times race weight [3][4]

I deduced the normalizing constant of 235 simply by running a quick program on all the 1/4 mile data as published in 1996 issues of C&D, MT and R&T and finding the mean of all the derived constants. [3][5]

Notes:

[1] The volumetric efficiency of any motor is not a constant and differs from RPM to RPM, therefore to find peak torque, one must use the associated peak flow bench number and locate the rpm at which that occured.

[2] Again, this is a misnomer...for that given motor the torque at any instanteous RPM is always fixed - it will never differ unless the outside barometer changes. Since VE will change with RPM, you can plot the Torque curve (and hence HP curve) just by using flow bench material while an electric motor spins your motor

[3] Race weight should be the weight of whatever lined up at the starting line - not curb weight....you must include the driver and all test equipment. For my program, I used 200lbs of driver+equipment

[4] At trap speeds over 100mph, this formula will understate power as the effect of wind resistance is no longer secondary - indeed the margin of error will be larger if say an F150 was trapping at 100mph vs a Camaro. I dont know how to solve the wind resistance problem - yet

[5] There is another formula that calculates HP based on ET (in fact this is also used in some versions of 'desktop-dyno-like software') I reject it because you can get the same ET on different HP motors by using gearing, as long as the peak torque number is achievable in each gear used on the pass - in other words, since there is more than one solution, its not as reliable, BUT it can work for traps&gt; 100mph with the same error margin it has at lower traps.

Now to jump on topic....your motor as quoted above must achieve 97% VE to get 500ft lbs. So along the rpm curve where 97% is hit, your T-curve will be at or above 500 (run the numbers to see why I get skeptical when comeone claims a 350 can make 500T naturally aspirated)

http://www.theengineshop.com/newstuff8.shtml
Formulas suck!!

Real world, man..catch up.

edit-Jakeshoe never said 350. Read the quote, 500 cubes.

[This message has been edited by Q-ship (edited November 26, 2003).]

Don't see an issue hitting VE's of 97% on a motor. I got the dyno sheets (real dyno not desktop) showing mine at 105%.

Chris -nice to see you here, the gogo girls are waiting for us in Indy next week!

Oh forgot, I've been running a 200 behind my little small block described below for a few years now. What I will say is if you boil the tranny fluid cause you don't keep the tranny cooler clean it will take out the clutches. What I also know is other than stupid owner issues a 200 built by the likes of PTS or CK take lots of power without a whimper, plus on your way to and from the dragstrip or up to the carshow you can get excellent fuel economy.

As to the 700 issue, I ran one of those prior to my current motor. That final dynoed in the 470 range (383 motor). Worked great was a cheap Jet Performance $1200 jobbie even. Back to back there is no doubt the gear spread of the 700 is not as nice as the 200, I far and away prefer the 200, it is a very noticable difference.

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70 SS 454 CI Dynoed 650+HP (with old cam) All Aluminium Fuel Injected Small Block 708HP (based on Engine Analyzer) with new cam, 908HP with 200 shot of Nitrous Express go juice. 1208 if I put the big jets in it and want to bust rings.

[This message has been edited by Rick WI (edited November 26, 2003).]

getting ready for the trip rick.some people here have sent me some pretty angry emails so i feel right at home ,reminds me of turbo buick.com.i hope however they will realize my sincerity and dedication as i plan on being a face in the crowd here as long as i am welcome.

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the ultimate in drag racing automatics,www.ckperformance.com

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by chris718:
getting ready for the trip rick.some people here have sent me some pretty angry emails so i feel right at home ,reminds me of turbo buick.com.i hope however they will realize my sincerity and dedication as i plan on being a face in the crowd here as long as i am welcome.

</font>
Progress is slow sometimes. I didn't follow this thread at all until tonight. Couldn't believe it! The subject of overdrive trannies .......man I don't know how to say it.....brings out an abrasive tenor sometimes. Not that it is bad but more from the standpoint of people have such strong opinions. Being active on this board for at least a couple three years I don't know if I have ever seen a thread quite as "hard hitting and focused" as this one. At least that I can remember. I can say one thing Chris, sooner rather than later the folks on this board will more than appreciate what you have to offer and the length of service you extend to folks like us that try to push the limits. What makes boards like the priceless in value are folks like you, Hughes, PTS, TCI, and present and former GM techs sharing their experiences and thoughts on the subject matter. I hope you all continue to stop by here and share.

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70 SS 454 CI Dynoed 650+HP (with old cam) All Aluminium Fuel Injected Small Block 708HP (based on Engine Analyzer) with new cam, 908HP with 200 shot of Nitrous Express go juice. 1208 if I put the big jets in it and want to bust rings.

Angry emails ? ...I get a few since I attempt to help folks on about 8 different bbs.

I did not adress the strength issue the other eve. here is my thoughts on the 700

New parts are needed for the 700 if you want them to live in a higher hp arena. I imagine most of the season'd builders have seen what I have seen in a failed 700.

The 3/4 friction pack has a been a troubled area since day 1. Stepping up to the nine friction count deal with Kolene steels is fine, but the steels are too thin to handle heat very well. Even a nice high mileage clutch pack, the steels come out quite wiggly. Looking like waved plates.

When you disassemble the 3/4 clutch pack that has been hurt... the outer frictions will often be nice since they run against the thicker apply plates. Thicker steels will help , but you lose friction material surface.

OK.... a common upgrade thing for the aluminum drum is to sleeve the center part where the splines are for the input shaft. That helps the splitting problem of the aluminum. The splines themselves will twist out of the aluminum.

Many builders I've known over the years do not check for a loose input shaft to the drum.

OK , lets say the splines are good. The next area is the input shaft with ALL of those pesky holes down it's length for fluid transfer. they split out there.

The apply piston for the 3/4 pack is a bit small. We set up units with max main line in the area of 275-290 psi. If you do not have the right parts and clearances the pump will easily fail.

If you design a new 700 main drum with a bigger 3/4 apply piston... will the steel apply cage arms with stand the force of the larger piston or collapse?

On to the drive shell. I had a GM engineer tell me the drive shell manufacturing process was changed to avoid the splined section breaking off the main shell. I told him they must have softened the metal too much since I have seen many 2001-03 shells from trucks with 20 -30k miles with the splines were half to fully gone.

I personally have seen no failures of the "Beast" drive shell. The small thrust washer bothers me, but none have failed in my units to date. This is not meant as an endorsment, just my observation.

The rear ring gear shaft is a bit weak. GM has a replacement shaft out with a bearing on it. A nice piece and it adds another bearing. I am sure the season'd guys here know about using a T-350 pump bearing and 200-4r bushing in the reverse input drum of the 700 for another torrington bearing at the pump.

5 pinion planets....... I seldom see a blown up 4 pinion planetary unit that was not starved of lube. I have seen 2 rear 5 pinion planets broken. Not sure if it was simply a bad casting or what. There was no indication of lost lube or heat build up.

That is another area of concern with the 700 tranny. The lube cicuit, clearances and bushings must be correct to deliver the lube to where it needs to go

In stock form ; if you take a 200-4r from a turbo car and a 700 from a vette or F body I think they are fairly evenly matched for strength. Gear train wise , I believe the 700 is a bit stronger.

Neither of these trannys are great for drag racing, that does not mean people dont do use them. A couple of us drag raced a 64 Chevy II with a 700 and 5.38 gears. We talked to Gil Younger for some advice. After he told us we were nuts he offered up help. This was in the mid 1980's, there was little aftermarket parts to help us.

Remember this was the time when tranny guys were pulling 700r4's out by the boat load and installing T-350 or 400's.

The steel replacement drum for the 700 chris mentioned.... I am curious about it's weight. After each shift the engine must accelerate it back to speed for the next shift. A loaded aluminum drum is fairly heavy. The steel drum should be an interesting addition to the 700 parts line up.

your mileage may vary.. http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

EDIT======== I mean to comment of the rear case bushing of the T-400. Hopefully you folks are aware the C-6 bronze pump bushing will press into the T-400 case. if possible use a lathe with fixture to cut a oil groove in the C-6 bush to match the OEM design T-400 case bush.

The thick washer from a Transgo 700r4 spring kit is used to space the C-6 bushin "up' in the T-400 case. Place the washer around the bushin(may need to file the washer ID a bit). Use a large bushing driver that does NOT fit inside the bushing to drive it in.

Then use a T-350 pump torrington bearing there placed over the C-6 bushing for alignment. T-350 pump shims will tighten end clearance up if needed

------------------
Tony

[This message has been edited by Crosley (edited November 26, 2003).]

Angry emails? I can see a discussion, arguement, or outright brawl in a thread-sending angry emails strikes me as cowardice. If something is said, it should be in the forum where people can judge for themselves. The purpose of this is to help others in their hobby, correct? Sending an angry email seems like there is another agenda at play for some folks. Have the huevos to put it out here or can it, I say!

3/4 clutch pack for us hasnt been a problem after doing the following things:remove all the helper springs from the clutch pack,install a 4l60e 3/4 steel as your pressure plate ,apply plate and middle of clutch steel as a heat dissipitator,machine down the 5 leg 3/4 apply piston to accept 12 alto commercial frictions w/kolene steels ,NEVER DRILL THE 3/4 CLUTCH FEED HOLE NEVER,open the 3rd accumulator hole in the seperator plate to .125 to .140,use a th400 intermediate band return spring in place of your stock 700r4 servo return spring ,and use the 3/4 clutch apply/return spring assembly from a 4l60e transmission.with this combination i never see heat checking of the steels in the center of the clutch pack where elevated temperates are present because of reduced thermal heat transfer due to lack of heat absorbtion surface as compared to the highest and lowest points of the clutch packs.this set up reduces clutch pack accumulation time and assures that the clutch pack has BEGUN to apply before the band knock off is completed.if this is not done properly a whip loose or cut loose occurs which is actually a momentary return to FIRST GEAR DURING A 2/3 SHIFT DUE TO A TEMPORARILY UNGROUNDED REAR SUN GEAR OR THE THE ABSCENCE OF THE REACTION TUBES INFLUENCE ON THE GEARSET TO INITIATE 3RD GEAR OPERATION WHEN THE GEAR SET IS NOT IN REDUCTION.the main problem with clutch failure in a 700r4 is THE CALIBRATION OF THE VALVE BODY DOES NOT HAVE THE PROPER THROTTLE ANGLE TO PRESSUE RISE RATIO WHICH ALLOWS TURBINE SHAFT INPUT FORCE TO OVERPOWER OR SLIP THROUGH THE FRICTION ELEMENTS.this is accomplished simply through the use of the human mind and the installation of the proper line bias ,accumulator valve,1/2 2/3 and 3/4 accumulator springs ,tv and intermediate boost valves and pressure regulator spring, and 094 servo.all available in an easy to install kit from you know who.read customer feed back and see who did their homework,and who was occupied with something other than a 100 percent success rate,.lube problems are almost always caused by someone overlooking worn bushings and causing multiple bleed off points of precious lube oil.i dont have the right bushing driver is certainly a good reason for not finding another way to remove and reinstall a bushing .the stock setup is fairly well at sending oil everywhere and in most cases rear planetary failure is not caused by a weak planetary carrier.however i do reccomend the rear carrier with the shield always be used .as far as the gear sets durability,the amount of teeth in mesh during maximum and minimum reduction is substantially increased over most othe designs as the 700 features more teeth per pinion.sun shell issue is solved with heat treated parts AND proper calibration such as the aforementioned techniques.our steel drum has and will solve the breakage problems once and for all.from the big apple this concludes our broadcast day.HAPPY THANKSGIVING ALL.

------------------
the ultimate in drag racing automatics,www.ckperformance.com

[This message has been edited by chris718 (edited November 27, 2003).]

Great posts Crosley and Chris...cut, pasted and saved. Might have to take the ol 700 out of the barn and tear into it for a 69 Camaro project.

------------------
70 SS 454 CI Dynoed 650+HP (with old cam) All Aluminium Fuel Injected Small Block 708HP (based on Engine Analyzer) with new cam, 908HP with 200 shot of Nitrous Express go juice. 1208 if I put the big jets in it and want to bust rings.

I invited Chris here for his input,
I told him to say it as he sees it and not just "back me up".

He IS a brutally honest guy and to the point of coming across as abrasive sometimes.
But he KNOWS his CHIT.

I haven't had any problems personally with a rear bushing walking on a TH400. I usually drive them slightly towards the front to catch the TH350 pump bearing as mentioned.

If they are loose at all when driving I use a different bushing.

However there are fixes for this as mentioned.

People like Chris and Crosley have scienced the 700 out. They know what works and what doesn't.

They build them EVERYDAY for pretty stout applications and KNOW the limitations first hand.

Anybody sending nasty emails over this thread obviously has some inferiority issues.
Everybody has different opinions. I have strong opinions but I base them on facts.

Nothing was ever said here (by me anyway) to degrade the building ability of any person.

I'm not half the trans guy that Chris or Crosley are but I know how to sift the info and sort the BS.

I do not always agree with Chris, we share some common ideas and differ on some things.
He likes Type F, I like Dexron... That's another thread.
We both like a trans that shifts quick and crisp but doesn't bang.
I disagree with him on some of his clutch pack clearance theories, or maybe just misunderstand, but again, that is another thread.

This thread has some VERY good info in it and everyone here except probably Chris and Crosley have learned something from it.
That is the whole point really.

It may not sway your opinion but it may teach you something new, or get you to try something new.

To Chris and Crosley,
Thanks for your input! And PLEASE keep visiting.
It seems like I'm the only auto trans guy here sometimes.

Just for kicks,
friend called me today and needs his 700 done up...
350 in an S10 blazer, just a cruiser....

So I will get to use these parts I have sitting here up after all...

My 200 is basically done, I have an extra to build to hang onto or see if maybe I can talk Michael (Old School) into trying in his wheels up 10 second ride so he can make the 70 mile drive up here more often http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

One thing that HAS come out of this thread,
I WILL be putting the 500 motor in my Chevelle with a 200 behind it, I was kicking it back and forth to look for another body for the 500, but I can't wait...
Will be getting a driveshaft this weekend to do the swap.
Results soon.

As for all the formulas posted,
Yes these are easily available online, or in my copy of the Auto Math Handbook.
My engine is based on a real world combo already running, not necessarily DD.
Chassis dyno numbers and time slips to follow...

IF I'm feeling focused, it may be in the car this weekend.

Good luck to all,
Very good thread and pretty civilized overall.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Q-ship:
http://www.theengineshop.com/newstuff8.shtml
Formulas suck!!

Real world, man..catch up.

edit-Jakeshoe never said 350. Read the quote, 500 cubes.

[This message has been edited by Q-ship (edited November 26, 2003).]</font>

I didnt say he said 350, I just meant I use this to give a validity check when you hear people braggin numbers. after all, this being the 2000's and all, the highest hp numbers are not found on the dyno, but rather internet BBS' no? http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Crosley:

5 pinion planets....... I seldom see a blown up 4 pinion planetary unit that was not starved of lube. I have seen 2 rear 5 pinion planets broken. Not sure if it was simply a bad casting or what. There was no indication of lost lube or heat build up.

</font>

I saw a GM spec where the 4 plaent set was rated for 650ft torque locked (meaning planets held, inner vs shell torque differential using the planets as a 'spline' - on the 5 pinion set it dropped to 612ft
(by comparison the 200 planet set is rated at 550 I beleive.)

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Q-ship:
Angry emails? I can see a discussion, arguement, or outright brawl in a thread-sending angry emails strikes me as cowardice. If something is said, it should be in the forum where people can judge for themselves. The purpose of this is to help others in their hobby, correct? Sending an angry email seems like there is another agenda at play for some folks. Have the huevos to put it out here or can it, I say!</font>


who sent angry emails? not I (point of fact I sent no emails)

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Q-ship:
http://www.theengineshop.com/newstuff8.shtml
Formulas suck!!

Real world, man..catch up.

edit-Jakeshoe never said 350. Read the quote, 500 cubes.

[This message has been edited by Q-ship (edited November 26, 2003).]</font>


Just outta curiosity - what is at that link u wanted me to see?

getlemen ,being a resident of new york city most of my life ,and parented by greek immigrants ,i never heard the term
"pissing match"until i came on to the computer.i find it quite amusing and am surprised that with all the strange people that pass through here it never was heard.sometimes when i agree with someone from out of the area and i say"i hear you
"they look at me like im crazy.go figure.hey jake ,i did gather more information here for my mental database and also got to take a peek into the psychie of some very bazaar individuals.notice i didnt use bizzare.thanks for pointing us here.


------------------
the ultimate in drag racing automatics,www.ckperformance.com

Play nice boys and girls. The expertise and experience that has chosen to stop by and offer thoughts here is astonishing, and sincerely appreciated. ANYONE who jeopardizes that will be shown the door! All we ask is show respect for the novice as well as the expert. I'm sure Tony and Chris would agree,,, if you think you know everything there is to know about this stuff,,,, you better find something else to do!

I for one have learned a lot...thanks

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by dcs13:
I for one have learned a lot...thanks</font>


I'm betting you weren't quite expecting all this out of one simple post- http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

We'll archive this one in a few days (after a little clean-up)...

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by quaddriver:

Just outta curiosity - what is at that link u wanted me to see?</font>


The 585/600 numbers on pump gas from a crate engine. The point is these days it's relatively easy to build big HP/Tq. Your posts seem to show that you dont believe a street engine can put out this much power.

I'm not going to post anymore, I hope I haven't caused too much discomfort for the admins..I just saw some info that I felt was inaccurate. With Jakeshoe, Chris, and Crosley here, I think the tech end is covered. Those who argue too much with them do so at the risk of looking foolish.

Thanks for letting this go for so long, there has been some great info! One final question..Why are GM overdrives so controversial?

Q-ship,
I believe the GM overdrives are controversial because SOME claim overrated capacity for certain units in the name of selling their product.

So this makes the "average enthusuaist" beleive that these units can be built to withstand more power than they can actually be built to handle, reliably anyway.

I'll define the average enthusiast as someone who doesn't normally build their own trans.

Some builders may also believe these claims because they have had good luck using the "whiz-bang" parts as Crosley described them, or even stock parts.

Some people are simply mis-informed.
Not that they are less intellegent just haven't seen the failures/successes that some of us have seen.

There will always be controversy over some of this stuff.
I believe part of the controversy here was caused by people automatically assuming that since I personally will not build a 700 for a "hard-hitter" that I'm saying it won't work.
I just feel that it will be shorter lived than it SHOULD be and am not comfortable with having to warranty it.
I will not do a customer a disservice (IMO), whether he (customer) is of the same opinion or not is irrelevant because he doesn't have to warranty it.
He does however have to R&R and I'm not going to have the guy mad at me because the parts aren't available to build him a reliable trans.

If the guy feels like I just do not have the capabilities to build him a trans, that is fine with me.
Usually they go to someone else (whiz-bang guy), and come back later wanting to hear my opinion again...
Then spending money the second time around to get it done right.

Sound familiar Chis? Crosley?

Also,
I am NOT advocating that guys with a 3rd or 4th Gen Camaro, or late model pickup, or any car factory issued with a 4L60 type trans immediately pull it out and replace it with a 200-4R.

These guys are probably better off keeping their 4L60 until they go fast enough to need a TH400 or other extreme duty option.

Extreme duty options to me are a TH400, Glide, or 4L80.

If they are going this fast, say low 10's or quicker in a heavy ride, I still beleive a TH400 with a Gear Vendors is unbeatable and PROVEN combo, that can be warrantied to 1000+hp.

Many things affect the reliabiltiy of a certain unit.
Obviously the lighter the car, the less strain is put on the parts.
I believe vehicle weight makes a huge difference in longetevity.
If a guy comes along and is making 500+hp in say a 1963 Chevy II with a SBC and a supercharger, I'm more likely to agree that a 700 will hold up OK, especially if the car is crusier and not a slicks on it every weekend drag car.
I've just described a car that has one of my 700's in it.

Knowing what I know now, that car would have had a 200 in it simply because it would have used a stock driveline, easily obtainable crossmember,and would not have required any floorpan mods.


If I bought a 3rd Gen Camaro tomorrow to install my 400 SBC into, I would retain the 700, simply because it isn't worth the hassle to change over to any other trans at a mild level.

Which brings me back to what I'e been saying all along.

In a conversion or ground up build "I" would choose a 200-4R.
In an existing chassis, depending on application the 700 can work, but IMO only to a certain level.
That level to me for warranty purposes is an honest 450 lb ft motor, this would actually keep MOST people in the bid for a 700.
If the car is never going to see slicks, sure run it behind a 600 lb ft motor. The trans will never see the power, because the tires will be spinning.

Start looking around on the 3rd Gen and 4th Gen sites and see what is happening to their 4L60's when their cars will hook and are making good power...

Some people simple believe because the factory rated a trans a certain way means that it is limited to the manufacturers parameters.
If we all thought this way we wouldn't be running a 40 year old design trans behind 2000hp.

Once the aftermarket develops the parts and the units are scienced out, they will obviously handle more power.

Some people are not aware of the parts avaialable for some units because they "follow the crowd", or the market segment for these parts is fairly small and obscure.
I'm speaking of the GN guys specifically here.
These were a low 14 second car bone stock.
They were EASILY into the 11's.
So parts started failing, there was a niche, so parts were developed.
The cars got faster, the parts got better.

I really don't understand why there hasn't been more development on the 700 side.
Maybe it is because some say nobody will drive a 600hp car on the street, other than to load it on a trailer.
Maybe there were too many other weaker problems that had to be scienced out and corrected first (sun shells, 3-4 clutches, etc..)

Who knows,
but inthe future I think the parts selection WILL get better because there are ALOT of people who do have the 700's in their rides, are putting a lot of power to the ground, are getting them to hook, and are tired of breaking them, but already tied to the trans.

Chris has informed some he will be working on his drum design at the beginning of next year, he already has the CNC program to do it.

Crosley has stated that Hughes is also interested in building a drum.

Two big name builders with the experience and expertise to get this done.
If there wasn't a problem they wouldn't be wasting there time on the project.

Controversy properly applied can breed information sharing.

Key is to keep it fairly civilized so it is actually information and not just a pissing match.

Have a good weekend all!

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Q-ship:

The 585/600 numbers on pump gas from a crate engine. The point is these days it's relatively easy to build big HP/Tq. Your posts seem to show that you dont believe a street engine can put out this much power.

</font>

not at all, if I didnt think a motor was putting out a claimed hp rating Id ask for a dyno sheet. BBs can get into those numbers naturally aspirated on pump gas, small blocks typically cannot...

However, with those kind of hp numbers, in cars as light as the F body, I/NHRA and local track rules dictate safety requirements that remove most cars from passing DOT requirements to be street legal anymore...so do I get quizzically skeptical over 'water cooler talk'? you betcha. Ive been around way too long, especially when we are talking door slammers.

What type of rules do NHRA/IHRA dictate that would make a car not street legal?

A roll cage doesn't make a car not legal, neither do 5 point harness', c-clip elims, aftermarket axles, fire extinguisher, coolant reservoir, driveshaft loop, etc..

You can drive a car around with a 'chute on the back on the street...
Might not want the attention...


A F-body really isn't that light, 1st gens being the lightest are still well over 3000 lbs. ???

My car scales at 3710 with a full tank and me in it. Not especially light. It is fully street legal, although by no means track legal, and driven on the street all the time, has been for quite a few years now. To make track legal I'd need cage, driveshaft loop, wheel studs. Nothing that would prevent it still being street legal. About the fastest street car in town is an 8.5 second Mustang, fully NHRA certified. Very streetable and, with the exception of emissions (500+ big blocks didn't come stock in these things) fully street legal.

------------------
70 SS 454 CI Dynoed 650+HP (with old cam) All Aluminium Fuel Injected Small Block 708HP (based on Engine Analyzer) with new cam, 908HP with 200 shot of Nitrous Express go juice. 1208 if I put the big jets in it and want to bust rings.

racing and power goes together I guess.

I've got a 62 Ford Falcon I am close to running down the track.

if I can keep the tires hooked up in high gear past the 1,000 foot mark I am sure I will bust into the 17's with the car. http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

For now I have the original 170 cid 6 cylinder with a C-4 in it. I have a big motor ( 200 cid) at the machine shop.

I even have an imported Ford Australian head for the 200cid motor.

this is a free site I have started on the Falcon, so if lots of folks hit it at once geocites shuts it down....

http://www.geocities.com/askjdah54/falcon.htm




------------------
Tony

Tony,
I once had a '62 Futura I intended to use for a little rod.
Had to trade it for a motor to keep my daily driver going....
Shoulda traded my daily driver for a 289, 302 and kept the perfectly straight little car.

Might get some 727 build tips from you and Chris...
Was looking at a Mopar today...
~ 1964 Valiant... and a RB motor and trans from a donor car...
For a song too.
PERFECTLY STRAIGHT, RUST FREE little body.
Would be FUN with a motor.
Might have to fix it up for the wife... http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

Off the subject question for Rick WI. Do you cruise down town a lot? It's been a while, I didn't know there was an 8 sec. Mustang out there.

Uhmmmmmmm, I used to and then........well lets say I've thought it best to keep a low profile for awhile (been a couple of years now. I was down there once this year is all.

The Mustang is a late model, like a 93ish, big block, Donny Campton built the motor. It's light blue. Don is also the name of the guy that owns it and he is friends with Dave Meister. Dave is the guy that owns the 70 Torino in Gray primer, he is downtown quite often. I'm sure you have seen that car around. He does 9.3's on a 200 shot of nitrous, 10.5 motor only. Don, Dave, myself and one other guy are all going to PRI in Indy together this year. Meister sold his old motor and is building a new one this year. He is stepping it up big time and will easily run 8's with the new motor. He is going to run the full schedule, at least try, this year in NMCA Extreme Street, plus whatever is the similar class in NMRA. Same with Don. Both cars are streetable but both have had extensive chassis work (4 links) adn run 12 points.

We should hook up, hell you are only about 15 minutes from where I live.




------------------
70 SS 454 CI Dynoed 650+HP (with old cam) All Aluminium Fuel Injected Small Block 708HP (based on Engine Analyzer) with new cam, 908HP with 200 shot of Nitrous Express go juice. 1208 if I put the big jets in it and want to bust rings.

Rick,
Afew years ago, I saw Dave race a sport bike and smoked, it. I took my car down there once, two years ago, and made it to 1st street and got nabbed(illegal exhaust amplification). I honestly wasn't horsing around. What do I expect with a bright yellow Camaro. It's not as fun as it was fifteen years ago when I was in high school. Anyway, Did you ever make it to Wendy's in Sun Prairie last year? I remember a lethal black early second gen there once. Is the Don you were refering to the one from Performance Plus? Yeah, we should hook up. I'm always looking for more gearheads to hang out with.

Marty Koppes
429-3934

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by martZ:
Rick,
Afew years ago, I saw Dave race a sport bike and smoked, it. I took my car down there once, two years ago, and made it to 1st street and got nabbed(illegal exhaust amplification). I honestly wasn't horsing around. What do I expect with a bright yellow Camaro. It's not as fun as it was fifteen years ago when I was in high school. Anyway, Did you ever make it to Wendy's in Sun Prairie last year? I remember a lethal black early second gen there once. Is the Don you were refering to the one from Performance Plus? Yeah, we should hook up. I'm always looking for more gearheads to hang out with.

Marty Koppes
429-3934</font>

Ya know, I don't know where Don (the Mustang guy) works, I never asked him. I'll find out. If you are asking about Campton, he owns his own shop.

Hehehe. I'll have to give Meister shit about that, racing a bike. He has no control. This summer he got nailed in his Mustang for street racing, got it reduced though by the DA. It is a lot more harry down there now. If we really want to hang it out we go out on 151 by the airport or US 30 right off E Wash. Maybe hang around Walgreens on the far east side.

Remember hearing about the Pearl White Turbo Supra that lost it on E Wash? That was the last night I was down there. I had a birds eye view of that one. Quite the story I'll share with you when we hook up.

I made it twice to Wendys last year is all. I had quite a bit of downtime this summer as I freshened the motor. Didn't see the black second gen though either time, damn.

Dave now builds motors at the shop where I have my Dyno and nitrous refill station, bout 5 minutes from my house.

For sure we should hook up, Rick Pettibone 608-825-6251



------------------
70 SS 454 CI Dynoed 650+HP (with old cam) All Aluminium Fuel Injected Small Block 708HP (based on Engine Analyzer) with new cam, 908HP with 200 shot of Nitrous Express go juice. 1208 if I put the big jets in it and want to bust rings.

One of the moderators posted the idea of achiving this thread.

Since most of this thread is about "built up" transmissions, You need to start with a core.....

In the past it has been said that if you are going to get a stock 700 trans do not pick one from the "early 80's". Not that I have found much problem with stock hp - but a build up - yes.

In the early to mid 80's, I worked at replacing a lot of 200's because the went to the craps. Most trans shops in my area had the same opinion back then and would not offer a dime for the core (instead they directed me to the scrap bin).

After all this babling...
SO MY QUESTION IS.... (for the archive)

What year(s) of the 200 should one stay away from when it comes to using the core for build up?

81-74,

As with the 700R4, the later the core, the more desirable.

As far as internals,
there were no major differences.
The later VB's pumps had some improvements.
I believe 87 and newer pumps (690) had a step to retain the pump bushing and had the drainback hole factory enlarged.

The GN, Monte SS, Hurst Olds, etc.. had the better VB, servo, governers, but internally were almost identical.

Chris has mentioned to me that the GN trans had some type of brace on the planets.
Haven't really ever paid attention as the stock planets don't seem to be a problem.

The GN servo is definitely the best OEM offering as far as servo's that came in the 200-4R.
a good upgrade that Chris taught me is to use a servo from an early TH200, they are bigger than a Super servo, and cheaper too if you can find one...
Cover cast number ending in 112.

as far as I know they never came with a 10 vane pump, maybe the late model TTA trans did circa 1990.

There were some differences on the way the splines terminated on the input shafts. I believe the late model shafts were better, but don't know the point that they changed.

I try to use a forward drum out of a unit that has not been abused if I'm not upgrading it.

No major changes like the 4L60 went through though, so about any core will work and interchange with others.
The ATSG manual covers the pump casting interchangeability.

Most of the problems with the 200 in the 80's were the same as the 700 had...
Hydraulic in nature.

The boost valves and pump kits are interchangeable between the two.
A 10 or 13 vane pump kit for a 200 will work in the 200, the .500 boost valve is the same, etc.

The 200 needs mostly the same things a 700 does.
Upgraded hydraulics, better band, better servo, upgraded pump, and attention to detail.

I add a clutch to the OD clutch pack, and run Alto red clutches in the direct and OD packs.

Nothing crazy...

I tend to agree with jakeshoe on most of this, I have been building performance units now going on 27 years. I have come up with some fixes for the 700R4/4L60E awhile back and decided a couple of years ago to devote all my building to nothing but 700R4/4L60E's, and with good success. I have several in the 10's and the 11's, doing well. A couple of these live at the drags, and the rest are daily drivers to weekend warriors. The vast majority of my units being in the low 12's to high 13's. I have worked with Bruce Tolle in the past on some of the ideas on the 2004R, but felt he would be better on doing the 2004R's because of the time, money, & dedication he had toward making the 2004R hold up to some horsepower & torque. I decided that I would concentrate on the 700R4/4L60E, and thankfully it has worked for me so far. My units do not "see" the HP & torque that some of the 2004R units that Bruce is putting out. My stuff is out there to fulfill a need/want. Most builders of these units make "great" claims as to what HP they can handle, and when something goes wrong they put the blame on the customer, etc. I say that with what I do to these, about 550HP is a realistic limit (with a 10" or 9.5" TC) and not break parts & 625-650HP with a sleeved input drum (not the Torque Drive). Anything over this is a pipedream. For a complete description of what I do to these units you can go to http://www.pro-built.net I have heard for the past several years of a titanium input drum (someone in Colorado) and the heavy steel drum, but from what I see, these were just rumours. I hope this puts some perspective on this subject.

[This message has been edited by Pro Built Automatics (edited December 16, 2003).]

Dana,
Thanks for your input...
I have a few questions for you offline sometime (when I get not so busy).