Ok this may be a dumb question but a mechanic(old school streetracer ) once told me i could use type f in place of dextron 3 to firm the shifts a little as it doesnt have the "slippery additve" for smooth clutch engagment, he said thats what B&M trick shift fluid was when it first came out. now I have to admit once upon a time i did this in my blazer a while ago when the tranny was a really really tired. and it did help, actually made it feel like i had put in a stage 1 sift kit almost. although a few months later the governer cap poped off and lost all my fluid while on the freeway basicly destroying my 700r4. but Im asking now because my th350 is acting tried and need to prolong its performance for a little longer since I have no money to work on it so im wondering if this is safe.

I wouldn't recommend it.
Type if is harsher on the frictions, so if they are questionable it could cause them to get worse.

If it feels "slippy" I would leave it alone, even new Dexron, the detergents would be harsher on the frictions.

If it is a seal problem causing it to feel slippy, you COULD put some solvent like Trans-X in to swell the lip seals a little, but this is a temporary solution at best..

I think I would leave it alone and try to find a good deal on a TH350...
Or buy a kit and rebuild it....

But that's me http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

Actually,
On second thought...

The best thing I cna think of would be to replace the filter and refill with tractor hydraulic fluid, it is available anywhere and just let it mix with the ATF that is already in there.
Look for Tractor fluid used in tractors with automatics..
It is a little heavier weight than Dexron so may seal the seals better.
Very clear so you need some ATF mixed with it to identify it on the dipstick and if you have any leaks..

I have used and still use type f .actually,in a B/M shift kit install instructions,they tell you to use type f instead.From what I have gathered,type f has more anti-foaming agents in it.

I have had not one problem using it.

And you will not have any problems running it in the short term...

And I wouldn't trust anything the B&M instructions say....

Their parts break trannys and their techniques are outdated.

Type F has fewer friciton modifiers, and will cause a varnish residue over time.
Ever wonder why NONE of the OEM's run it anymore?

I would stay with Dexron or use tractor hydraulic fluid.

Tractor fluid has a higher evap temp. It is more stable under extreme conditions than other fluids.

Dexron has all the proper additives.
You don't calibrate a trans with fluid type.

ok first off.everyone so far was correct.2ndgenjason b+m shift kits and tci shift kits do recomend type f.there is a draw back trans wont last long(street driven)and if you have a already well worn trans it will kill it.jake pretty much nailed it on the quality there and also with the tractor fluid.it much higher temp and will "extend the life"but not correct anything wrong.if somethigns wrong it will go and usually at the worst moment(ask me how i know this)what i would do is change filter and gasket mix some tractor fluid in and look for either a good th350 or a good core and get it built.oh yeah jake whats the deal with the new mercron 5 fluid.asked or guy at work that delivers our fluids and has no clue.eric

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efi the only way to fly

Learn something new everyday.
Glad I checked back.

Uh Oh! I was running type f for a while. There wasnt anything wrong with my tranny but I did the stage 1 B&M kit & followed their reccomendation too. I will be installing a new B&M converter & the tranny is empty now. Should I use the B&M Trick shift or just plain old Dexron?

I don't know alot of hands of tech when it comes to trannies, but from what I heard the tranny guys say trick shift is a waste of money. Best way to sum up what trick shift is, is its a high priced type F fuild.

Myself I like the tractor fuild. I like the higher break down temp of it.

Trick shift is just hi-priced F.

My best recommend for MOST people is to just use Dexron.
For severe use, use Tractor Hyd fluid.

Listen to Jake he knows his trannys. The type F WILL wear the frictions much quicker. Trick shift is a waste of money. Your better off spending the money on a good trans cooler than you are pouring $70 down the filler tube. I have always run Dexron and have had no problems but I may try adding some tractor fluid to it and see if the shifts get a little snappier. I have also found that in my experience STP oil treatment added to the fluid will aid a slipping tranny. Every time I change my fluid and filter I fill the pan w/ STP before putting it back up.

[This message has been edited by 70RATZ28 (edited October 22, 2003).]

jake....how long do you think my tranny will last in my 80 z28? i run that harsh B@M shift kit for street and strip(still got that killer 2nd gear bark at 70+ mph) and running a mix of type F and dex.3 both wal-mart brands.....since i have a ford truck sometimes im out of dex 3 and just poor in type f ...figure its only tranny fluid.........you know i replaced my input shaft and forward clutch.....but the clutches looked good ...like new and this is with about 5000 miles on it so far since it was rebuilt...........


i read all this talk about them not lasting long(using type f and bad shift kits) and they will wear out faster......how many miles of driving are we talking about.........i know the way i drive my car.....almost everyday....if i can get 30,000 miles out of i think im doing good.............even thou i got almost 5000 before the input shaft broke but i hope i wont see that again........and hope it was a fluke.....


like my ford truck it runs type f fluid and that all i put in it.......it took just shy 150,000 miles before the tranny just gave up..slipping real bad getting tough to get that 4600 lbs truck rolling...(4 speed O.D. auto)...i bought the truck with 80,000 original miles and talk to the original owner who basicaly just put gas in the truck and drove it around town did no maintenance at all to it.....

i bought it and drive it like i stoled it, race it...pull 10,000 lbs worth of crap behind me and 7000 lbs worth of car and tools and trailer as well(race day..lol)..it has been the most dependable truck.....better the the new ones ive owned....and i have just tore the crap out of the tranny with down shifting , holding second gear down in low, and taking it 4 wheeling........

just trying to get the feel here where what is considered short lived....

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1980 z28 4060 lbs daily driver,414ci bbc,2.41 gears best run to date 14.47@98mph w/2.15 60 ft

1981 camaro "the race car" as the kids say has a 454 60 over 13 to 1 compression roller cam with nitrous injected and everything passing thru a 4500 stall and 4.56 gears...what a wild ride at 126 mph running wild between 10.80's and low 11's.........someday i'll hit the nitrous...lol

1986 ford pick-up "the tow rig" that runs a slow 18.00 flat at 75 mph in 1st and second gear only...lol

ddeennis,

I wouldn't so much be scared of the Type f as I would the B&M kit...
Type F mixed with Dexron won't hurt anything. The Dexron will provide the fritcion modifiers you need. Worst thing the type F will do in that situation is varnish faster.

SOME have had OK luck with the B&M kits.
I have had decent luck with them in very low HP applications on a very moderate setting.
But what I have learned in the last couple of years I just do not use them and will not install them anymore.

If it is OK now, leave it alone.
It could last a long time or it could break tomorrow. It really just depends on the 1-2 shifdt calibration and whether or not you have a wave plate in the intemediates...

Before this topic dissapears, If I use the Dexron 3 will I loose the snappy shifts?

It doesn't make big difference. Just a minor difference.
Once again you do NOT calibrate shift quality with fluid type...

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by jakeshoe:
It doesn't make big difference. Just a minor difference.
Once again you do NOT calibrate shift quality with fluid type...</font>

I understand that the fluid you put in doesnt dictate shift calibration. I did however install the B&M stage 1 kit last year. Now I will add a B&M 20400 converter. Again they really stress the use of their Trick Shift or F over Dexron. There has to be a reason. I'm not doubting your knowledge Jake, so dont take it the wrong way. I just dont understand why B&M would suggest fluid type that would wind up trashing peoples trannys. Pretty soon customers would blame B&M, not the fluid type. Theyve been around a long time. I imagine they are fairly knowledgeable about their products. BTW, I already bought a case of Dexron3 to put in, based on this post actually.Also a cooler is on the bench & waiting for installation. Just makes you wonder what B&M's angle is...

Myself I feel the whole type F fuild deal is yester year type stuff.

I'm young but I talk with of older ex racers, and the likes, and it seems like the type F was the trick fuild to use back in the 60's and 70's.

Jake's right you don't re cal your shifts with fuild but thats one reason why we all hear time from time about type F. Back in the 60's and 70's the info wasnt easy to get, common back yard builders and even bracket racers could'nt get info easy. (think of the terms from that time like 3/4 race cam lol)

So one guy told the other guy about how much better his trans felt with type F, how the shifts hit harder, etc etc, and that kinda spreaded out among all the car guys. Yes it does do what they used it for back then (a harder shift), but today unlike in years past we can get more info, test, etc and all that info tells me type F aint near as good as they thought it was in the 70's.

From what I read, seen and heard it will cause more wear faster than Dexron.

Johnny,
As I've stated before,
Type F isn't going to cause an immediate catastrophic failure... or any immediate failure.
it will work fine, mixes with ANY other ATf fine, and otherwise will make a very small but sometimes noticeable difference in shift quality.

The problems with Type F are varnishing over time or if overheated and lack of the proper friction modifiers conducive to long friction life.

I used to use it myself going off B&M instructions...

Here's the deal,
FORGET B&M and any product or advice they ever gave out.
It's junk, if it IS good it is just a repackged product.
Their coolers are Tru-Cool (good coolers), their chrome pans are junk (leak), their shoft kits CAUSE broken transmissions (improper shift timing, broken intermediate sprag), their sprags are Borg Warner, same as TCI, etc.. I get them for about half what B&M sells the for...

I could find a spring supplier, and start selling "shift kits" tomorrow at the same price as B&M that didn't break parts. It isn;t that hard to design something to make a trans shift harder.
Anybody with a trans troubleshooting manual and a little time can figure out how to do it.
I might suggest you look at the instructions on a B&M kit and the troubleshooting chart for a hard 1-2 shift, etc..

Type F IS an old school trick, it is outdated and isn't what I suggest a person do to obtain a firmer shift.

here's a good question,
if Type F is any good, why is Ford using Dexron now?

Something to think about...

We're not talking about a company that has little or no R&D department (B&M) selling $30 shift kits.
We're talking about one of the biggest auto manufacturers in the world and a R&D and engineering dept that is probably 10 times bigger than B&M is as a company...

as I've also stated before, I will NOT install any B&M stuff in any trans I build...
Ask any reputale tranny builder what they use as far as shift kit company...

use the wrong kit and you won't be reputable for very long....

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by jakeshoe:

Type F IS an old school trick, it is outdated and isn't what I suggest a person do to obtain a firmer shift.

here's a good question,
if Type F is any good, why is Ford using Dexron now?

</font>


Jake, I agree 100% with everything you said, except I really think B&M makes junk.

I disagree about the comments above though, Type F isn't just an old school trick, in some configurations, it does lower ET, and most of us will never have varnish or wear problems because we don't let the temperatures rise and the tranny gets freshened on a regular basis. These a very subtle differences though, the skill of the person building your trans is more important than the type of fluid you choose to run.

Playing with tractor fluids is a bad recommendation for most people since there are so many local interpretations of what tractor fluid is, and an infinite variety of hydraulic oils to choose from if you have a good supplier. You are correct that this is the preferred fluid, but without a type or part number recommendation, it's easy to buy the wrong stuff.

I've used both commercial fluids and Type F because of their friction characteristics, but I won't use Dexron in my race car because I do loose ET. I've never seen any indication of varnishing, and I freshen it once a year as part of my normal maintenance.

Holley Carburetors, leaded fuel, second gen Camaros, and most of the stuff we like are "old school", and outdated, but I'm not putting fuel injection on my car because carbs are outdated. Ford's fluid selection probably has as more to do with the financial health of their operation as opposed to trying to be different from the rest of the world. Let GM do the work and Ford profits from it!

My tranny is filled with 5w-20 Mobil 1 Yes Engine oil.

That is what the tranny guy uses.
It seems to work, I'm a half second quicker now.

1/2 second quicker from using Mobil One oil in your trans...
I SERIOUSLY doubt that ANY fluid will gain or lose more than maybe .01-.02 seconds ET on a healthy trans...

camdoc,
what kind of ET difference have you experienced with back to back testing?
Same weather conditions, vehicle weight, etc..
To do this properly you would really need to do it at the track on the same day within a short perio of time to see any benefits or differences.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by jakeshoe:
1/2 second quicker from using Mobil One oil in your trans...
I SERIOUSLY doubt that ANY fluid will gain or lose more than maybe .01-.02 seconds ET on a healthy trans...

camdoc,
what kind of ET difference have you experienced with back to back testing?
Same weather conditions, vehicle weight, etc..
To do this properly you would really need to do it at the track on the same day within a short perio of time to see any benefits or differences.

</font>

You're absolutely correct, the difference is consistently .02-.03 in my configuration. That's enough of a difference for me to smile!

If you run the same car at the same track for a long time (years), you don't need to do things on the same day. I have megabytes of data for analysis so I can tell the difference without the need of running it on the same day, as any good dragracer should know.

Good Luck! (I think we're making too much out of this subject.)

camdoc... Getting the right tractor fuild aint all that hard. If you spend about 10-20 min. online you can get all the info on what to use.

Here's alittle bit on it...

tractor power fluid that crosses to Mobilfluid 424

caterpillar tranny fluid

get it from any caterpiller dealer, The part number is 8t - 9568 for the 10 wt and 8t-9572 for the 30 wt


Be sure you're getting hydraulic power (transmission) fluid, and not hydraulic oil that's used in things like loader buckets and backhoes. ask for Mobilfluid 424, or cross to its equivalent

local petroleum products distributor had something equivalent in Conoco, and it met or exceeded Caterpillar TO-2 and TO-3

Mobil Mobilfluid 424 Hi performance Tractor Hydraulic Transmission Fluid


With all the above info I set out to find some for mine. 1st stop was wal-mart cause I had to go anyway. They sell the same spec stuff in 2 gal jugs, and 5 gal buckets.

It's wal marts super tech brand
blue jug, black labal with green on it. Says "heavy duty tractor hydraulic & transmission oil"

After I seen that, I read the back.. It says "for year round use in farm, construction, and industrial type equipment where a common pump or a single fuild is used in the transmission, hydraulics, differential, final drives, power take-off, power steering, and wet brakes."

Then it lists the tractor app. and specs it meets..
there 4 before caterpillar, but then it gets to cat and says TO-2.

From the info I got on which type to use and what the jug said I knew this was the right fuild.

It's not hard to get the right stuff. I know 0, zip, nothing about tractors, but I know I got the right fuild for my cars tranny.

camdoc,
Yes you are also correct,
if you keep a log of all the conditions you can get pretty accurate on your testing without doing it same day...

That said,
Some people would believe changing something minor like fluid type would yield .5 reduction in ET.
Without doing a proper test under the same conditions the results would be skewed, possibly by a large amount.
A quick drop in temperature at my local 1/8 mile made my slow car drop .3 with no other changes...
Air density....

As far as the fluid goes,
It really depends on what you are after.
for ther average enthusiast (wants trans to last, perform well, and ease of maintenance, affordability) Dexron is hard to beat.
For a personm that wants a slightly better rpoduct at a good price the Tractor fluid works well.

For someone who can rebuild their own trans, and expects to do frequent maintenance and overhauls the Type F won't hurt either...

A proper cooler will make a lerger difference in the overall scheme of an automatic transmission than what special fluid you put in last week, as has been stated here before..

Very good information here. And a nice discussion too. Thanks for the replies Jake, & others. Well, I'll have to live with my B&M converter, cause its installed already. I did however fill er' up with Dexron 3. I did also purchase a 16,000lb gvw B&M cooler as well.....so, B&M it is this time around. http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif