First off.. I know this is a 2nd gen forum, but I asked this question on a 1st gen site with 0 replys. I have a 69 Camaro with Hedman 65003 (angle plug) headers that were almost 8 years old, rusty, banged up, etc.. So I bought a new set of 65003s (angle plug). They don't fit. There is not enough room in between the head and the round part of the steering shaft. Here are 6 pics... Mine is pic #1 with the old headers. I have a ZZ4 (350) with Trick Flow heads. 2-6 are other peoples 69 Camaro with 350s from Ebay. It seems like every other pic has more space between the head and steering shaft. Any ideas why this might be?

1. Mine with the old 65003's (and the new 65003s dont fit):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v243/shawntmartin/untitled-3.jpg

5 others that seem like theres more room:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v243/shawntmartin/BnIes6QmkKGrHqUH-CMEttQibRb5BLiUrpd.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v243/shawntmartin/BmoTG7QBGkKGrHqEH-CcEtrIIhBEBLgVwwj.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v243/shawntmartin/Bn1ofTQBmkKGrHqQOKkYEtkmJzUtEBLlFnO.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v243/shawntmartin/Bng9oB2kKGrHgoH-CEjlLl0g6UBLjCOOg_3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v243/shawntmartin/untitled-2.jpg

I could be wrong here, but it appears in the picture that those heads have straight plugs, no angled? Just curious. You can see there is a difference between what you have and the other pictures that yours are shaped differently than the others. I'd call the manufactor and tell them whats going on. They likely changed things. Just because a part number from 8 years ago may be different than a part number of today, even though they may appear to be the same thing. It looks like to me they belong on a second gen or something with the steering on the front side of the crossmember, where yours in on the rear. Be your best bet to call them.

Me thinks someone mixed the wrong headers into the box that you got. Time to call whoever you got them from and get a new correct set.

No the new ones are stamped with the same part number and look exactly the same (except for the flange on either end..the routing of the tube is the same). Those other pics are not Hedman headers.. I was just pointing out the space between the head and steering shaft in those other 69s.. not the headers.

I have angled plugs. My question is really... do those other 69's look like they have more space b/w the head and steering?

Here is a pic of the new ones. Seem the same as the ones my engine.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v243/shawntmartin/7290.jpg.

First off.. I know this is a 2nd gen forum, but I asked this question on a 1st gen site with 0 replys. I have a 69 Camaro with Hedman 65003 (angle plug) headers that were almost 8 years old, rusty, banged up, etc.. So I bought a new set of 65003s (angle plug). They don't fit. There is not enough room in between the head and the round part of the steering shaft. Here are 6 pics... Mine is pic #1 with the old headers. I have a ZZ4 (350) with Trick Flow heads. 2-6 are other peoples 69 Camaro with 350s from Ebay. It seems like every other pic has more space between the head and steering shaft. Any ideas why this might be?

1. Mine with the old 65003's (and the new 65003s dont fit):

5 others that seem like theres more room:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v243/shawntmartin/BnIes6QmkKGrHqUH-CMEttQibRb5BLiUrpd.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v243/shawntmartin/Bn1ofTQBmkKGrHqQOKkYEtkmJzUtEBLlFnO.jpg

Well, my first thought is that your headers are configured differently than any of the headers you show on other cars...that would explain part of it. Second, the two cars I left in quote would appear to have manual steering boxes whereas you have power. Third, I looked up the specs on the 65003's and it shows a 1 3/4" primary tube, I had thought that 1 5/8" was the max that would safely clear power steering. Fourth, Hedman has a note on the 65003's that states "Will not fit Saginaw close ratio power steering with 825 power steering box." Can't recall what the number is on a stock '69 Camaro PS box but regardless of ratio they all use the same casting - it's the internals that change (and steering knuckles etc).

My '69 Z is running a set of Stahl 1 5/8" headers which fit like gloves - even the back drive still fits My car has a manual steering) . I installed a set of Doug's headers on a friend's '69 Z with PS and they fit well although the back drive would no longer fit. Can't recall the tube size.

I know you say the old ones fit so DoTheDew might be onto something with the notion that the design may have changed.

Did you change motor mounts?

Something different I noticed right off.....and it may mean nothing....but it might mean something. Yours are square port primaries at the flanges. The rest you show are round port, except for the last pic. Even the ones you show in post #4 are round port....whereas the ones in the 1st pic are square port. Something is amiss.

......and yeah, the headers shown on the other cars are a different configuration, like flowjoe pointed out.

Well, my first thought is that your headers are configured differently than any of the headers you show on other cars...that would explain part of it. Second, the two cars I left in quote would appear to have manual steering boxes whereas you have power. Third, I looked up the specs on the 65003's and it shows a 1 3/4" primary tube, I had thought that 1 5/8" was the max that would safely clear power steering. Fourth, Hedman has a note on the 65003's that states "Will not fit Saginaw close ratio power steering with 825 power steering box." Can't recall what the number is on a stock '69 Camaro PS box but regardless of ratio they all use the same casting - it's the internals that change (and steering knuckles etc).

My '69 Z is running a set of Stahl 1 5/8" headers which fit like gloves - even the back drive still fits My car has a manual steering) . I installed a set of Doug's headers on a friend's '69 Z with PS and they fit well although the back drive would no longer fit. Can't recall the tube size.

I know you say the old ones fit so DoTheDew might be onto something with the notion that the design may have changed.

Did you change motor mounts?

Yea, I changed mounts but I still had the old ones installed. I think the design has changed enough were they wont fit. I've asked a BUNCH of times about what exactly is a "close ratio Saginaw box" because I know the 65003Hedmans say they wont fit. The only reply I ever received told me that it had to do with the power steering box (that has the cap and you add fluid to) won't line up with the first header bolt. I have a fabricated piece that makes that work so I didn't think I had to worry about that warning. But if the Saginaw box is that entire shaft that runs along the engine then I'm screwed. Here is the problem I have... I cannot find ANYWHERE ON EARTH.. a set of long tube, painted headers for a 69 that fits angled plugs and fits a close ratio Saginaw box. Anyone care to prove me wrong... BECAUSE I WOULD LOVE TO BE WRONG ABOUT THIS!

Hedman has a note on the 65003's that states "Will not fit Saginaw close ratio power steering with 825 power steering box." Can't recall what the number is on a stock '69 Camaro PS box but regardless of ratio they all use the same casting - it's the internals that change (and steering knuckles etc)

If they are all the same casting then why does Hooker and Hedman have headers that are marked "yes" under "Power steering"... but then a footnote says..won't fit close ratio Saginaw. What is the "yes" referring to?

Looks like Trick Flow might have moved the Exhaust Port,
It appears to be about 3/4" higher than a stock SBC exhaust port

It looks like they might have move it out a little too.

Just look at where the (accessory) mounting bolt is on the front of a stock head, then look at how yours compare.

You can almost see the accessory mounting bolt in the first pic.

Yea, I changed mounts but I still had the old ones installed. I think the design has changed enough were they wont fit. I've asked a BUNCH of times about what exactly is a "close ratio Saginaw box" because I know the 65003Hedmans say they wont fit. The only reply I ever received told me that it had to do with the power steering box (that has the cap and you add fluid to) won't line up with the first header bolt. I have a fabricated piece that makes that work so I didn't think I had to worry about that warning. But if the Saginaw box is that entire shaft that runs along the engine then I'm screwed. Here is the problem I have... I cannot find ANYWHERE ON EARTH.. a set of long tube, painted headers for a 69 that fits angled plugs and fits a close ratio Saginaw box. Anyone care to prove me wrong... BECAUSE I WOULD LOVE TO BE WRONG ABOUT THIS!

In '69 fast ratio steering boxes were available in both Power and manual versions. A manual box is significantly smaller than a power box and has no hoses to get in the way of the headers. Here's David Pozzi's site, Pozzi Racing (http://www.pozziracing.com/camaro_steering.htm#Steering%20box%20and%20ratio%20info), which has a lot of great info on GM steering boxes for 1st gens. Here is a link to the CRG's section on steering boxes (http://www.camaros.org/suspen.shtml#steer) . What I was trying to say above was that the external appearance and size of the boxes are the same whether they are base ratio or fast ratio. I too am puzzled by the Hedman disclaimer.

Here is another Hedman disclaimer that I just noticed, "103 - Fits with angle plug heads (Chevy aluminum only)." Maybe 1972L is correct and the Trick flows are the problem.

Here are the links for Stahl's SB 1st gen Camaro headers

106 - original design (http://www.stahlheaders.com/Frame%20New%20Drag.htm)

105 - New design (http://www.stahlheaders.com/Frame%20New%20Drag.htm)

110 - road race (http://www.stahlheaders.com/Frame%20New%20RR.htm)

None of them say anything about angle plugs but the 106's state that only the 1 5/8" will fit with PS.

Doug's Headers lists two full length, painted headers that will fit angle plug heads, D368-R & D323-R...the D368-R also states will not fit Saginaw box 825.

Hey, here's another article about GM Saginaw PS boxes (http://www.hemmings.com/hmn/stories/2007/05/01/hmn_feature30.html)

What I was trying to say above was that the external appearance and size of the boxes are the same whether they are base ratio or fast ratio. I too am puzzled by the Hedman disclaimer.


the 106's state that only the 1 5/8" will fit with PS.

Doug's Headers lists two full length, painted headers that will fit angle plug heads, D368-R & D323-R...the D368-R also states will not fit Saginaw box 825.

I separated those quotes to comment on each.

1. Its not just Hedmans disclaimer..its every company that makes headers.
2. Hedmans 1 3/4" say they fit PS but not Saginaw PS. WTF?
3. More proof that NO ONE ON EARTH makes angled plug headers with a Saginaw box.

I separated those quotes to comment on each.

1. Its not just Hedmans disclaimer..its every company that makes headers.
2. Hedmans 1 3/4" say they fit PS but not Saginaw PS. WTF?
3. More proof that NO ONE ON EARTH makes angled plug headers with a Saginaw box.

I guess the question remains: What the hell is a Saginaw 825 box? Everyone else seems to deem 1st gen boxes as 800 - and I know that box was in use on numerous models over numerous years (as stated in several sources). With reference to your point #2 above, well someone should tell hedman that that is absolutely worthless since all GM used was Saginaw boxes...:confused:;)

Now that was my fault... they actually state that they don't fit "CLOSE RATIO" Saginaw boxes. Don't know what the difference is...or what I have.

What a mystery for one of the worlds best selling muscle cars.

Now that was my fault... they actually state that they don't fit "CLOSE RATIO" Saginaw boxes. Don't know what the difference is...or what I have.

What a mystery for one of the worlds best selling muscle cars.

The 825 is not on you man, it is in their notes. And besides - what is a "close ratio" steering box? I know what a close ratio transmission is and I know what a fast ratio steering box is...is a close ratio steering box one in which you get to change ratios?;)