Has any body run them? Been thinking of bolting one on for a low boost motor to have some fun (5psi or less) Looking at the 177 model. Can I still run HEI with these? How reliable are they? I've read that cruise fuel mileage stays close to the same or just slightly less with the additional drag, but its not a big factor (Of course mileage at WOT doesn't really matter). I want something that both looks cool, has that classic blower wine, and sucks your head around the headrest back there somewhere kind of feel to it without sacraficing to much fuel mileage or drivibility. I considered the magnuson one by edelbrock for a while, but you can't run HEi with it, and must switch distrubutors. Plus the intial cost is higher on the blower unit itself. Any thoughts? Mainly a street car, don't mind cutting the hood. Will be bolting to a low comp smog era motor with cast pistons, so again, no major boost for now. I know the 144/142 are better for low end stuff like this, but I like the looks of the bigger 177, plus if I can afford to go up in engine size ie 383 or 400, it'll still meet my needs. Comments?:shy:

The little 142/144 blowers definitely clear with an HEI. Pretty sure the 177 does as well, but haven't tried it myself. Holley/Weiand has no warning against using an HEI, which they normally would have if there was an obvious interference problem.

The 142/144 small block kit comes with a 1.95:1 drive ratio out of the box (6" bottom pulley, 3.07" top pulley). Makes about 6 PSI on a "stock" 350.

The bigger 177 small block kit comes with a 1.71:1 drive ratio out of the box (6" bottom pulley, 3.5" top pulley and therefore also makes about the same 6 PSI on a "stock" 350.

Obviously, you've got more "headroom" left with the bigger blower. The little 142/144 blowers are done around the 500 HP range (out of pulley choices, but you're not going to be hitting 500HP with a stock bottom end anyway) while the 177 hits the lid around 600HP.

I run a 144 on a very mild 383 get about 5 lbs with the stock pulleys. it is very driveable, does whine a bit and will pin you to the seat pretty good, but the mileage suffered quite a bit. does turn some heads tho!

i want a blower
would 10.5 be border line to high or 10.0 to high?
im not sure about the compression ratios...
im at 10.5 right now and if that is too high ill just go nitrous and make a sleeper

i am only running 9. according to the manuel that came with the blower that is about the max without major lower end mods. however, i am sure that some of the guys here will be able to tell you for sure. I am just a tinkerer, there are some real pros on this site.

I'm at 8:1 on my setup with aluminum heads and a very mild cam. Depends on a bunch of variables, but with the little blowers it's best to "follow the recipe". Low compression, mild blower cam, conservative tune and make it work in the idle-5500 RPM range that the blower is efficient in. High compression = death. MUCH preferable to have compression in the toilet than to have it even borderline too high.

My first itteration was 9.2:1. Blew that one up pretty quick.

Next came two combos at 8.7:1. Eventually blew them both up (probably more the fault of my tune than the compression, but it was definitely "touchy" when it came to stepping over the line into detonation).

Current combo is at 8:1 and it's held together for several years now. It also goes just as fast as the previous higher compression engines. Low compression doesn't leave a lot of power on the table like in a N/A application. The pulley ratio is the primary determining factor of how much power it makes. The bottom end's job is pretty much just not to blow up.

post pics of what cha got :)

If you read through the holley website, generally lower compression is better, to an extent. The lower the compression, the more boost you can run. If you have 9.5-1, you can still run boost, but only 3-5 pounds. If its 8.0-1 or 8.5 you can get away with more, maybe 6-10, but all that pressure puts a lot of strain on the bottom end, so if its not up to the task it'll let go in a spectacular fasion. Timing is also a big key, and has to be set up accordingly, the more conservative the better I think. Any detonation will end the love story real quick.

rwild67 you mentioned mileage suffered quite a bit. Understandably during acceleration, but what about cruise conditions? I also heard cold starts are easier with a S/C, can you confirm this? Do you, or have you had any trouble with heating/cooling issues? From what I can figure out they seem pretty streetable, good idle, good vacuum(above intake of S/C), but I plan on driving quite a bit so it needs to be realiable. Its going on a smog era engine with all stock internals, cast pistons, the works. From the holley website this seems entirely possible so long as boost is kept low and timing carefully managed. What internals are you running in your 383?

I've had both the 144 and the 177 on the same motor.

The 144 was running about 4-5psi, and the 177 ran 6-7psi.
The 177 was significantly taller, but the HEI fit fine on either.
Either will be fine for DD status, I was running the 144 as my only car just after HS, even barely able to afford gas! I couldn't give you gas numbers from it, as it was likely a lot less cause I could NOT keep my foot out of it.
The engine was a dead stock, REALLY cheap crate motor from one of those engine 'rebuilders' from the Recycler classifieds.

P.S., click on my profile for a pic of my previous down and disgusting motor with the 177 atop.

rwild67 you mentioned mileage suffered quite a bit. Understandably during acceleration, but what about cruise conditions? I also heard cold starts are easier with a S/C, can you confirm this? Do you, or have you had any trouble with heating/cooling issues? From what I can figure out they seem pretty streetable, good idle, good vacuum(above intake of S/C), but I plan on driving quite a bit so it needs to be realiable. Its going on a smog era engine with all stock internals, cast pistons, the works. From the holley website this seems entirely possible so long as boost is kept low and timing carefully managed. What internals are you running in your 383?
cold starts are easier than you would ever guess!! the rotors atomize and heat the fuel so it starts after 1 or 2 revolutions cold and usually around 1/2 warmed up. my car is not a DD so I don't have much info on the mileage other than "less" I had the best luck cooling with my stock clutch fan and shroud, but I bought a cheap ebay electric fan setup so that might have been the problem there. my internals are all cast. and timing does need to be carefully set. to much advance and BANG, you need a couple of pistons!!
and if you backfire into the intake you can do damage as well. the little blowers dont need blow-out plates because they will slip the belt and let it blow through the carb, but I actually cracked and ear on an edelbrock before I redid the heads. (burnt a valve)

I've got a 142 on a 383 with about 9:1 pistons and aluminum heads. The one thing I found out is that lobe separation is really key to making these run right. Having a rumpety cam won't help a blower, as you're just blowing all the gasses right out the exhaust! Usually you'll be looking for lobe separation of around 112-116*.

Thanks for the replies. Would love to see some more pictures if they are out there. Obviously they won't fit under any second gen hood, but what is required to cover them up? 4 inch cowl? 6? 2? Yes, I think it'd have to agree the cam should be spec'd for the blower. If you're going to spend 2 large on a setup, whats another 100 to make it run like it should. Anything that you would or would not do again with the setup? More cooling? Different carbs? How well did the blower units themselves hold up? Chew any bearings? Wear any rotors? Also anyone that might have one for sale I'm interested.

You probably won't fit the 177 under a 4" hood. The little 142 and the even lower profile 144 will fit under a 4" hood with enough room for a resonable size air cleaner setup, though.

The 142/144 blowers have hold-down bolts that clamp the whole blower housing down, which can distort it and cause the lobes to hit the blower case (instant destruction) if you over-tighten even a little bit. Of course, it only happens when everything heats up, never just checking clearance (per instructions) when everything is cold in the garage.

The 177 and larger blowers at least use perimeter bolting to hold the blower to the lower manifold, preventing it from warping the case.

Making sure the fuel system is up to the task is very critical. Cooling no big deal- I used the original 2-core radiator, stock pump and clutch fan setup to keep my Malibu cool without issues. Also learned that stock-style "projected nose" spark plugs are not a good idea with the blower. Use non-projected nose plugs a couple heat ranges colder than stock.

Detonation is the enemy. And it's sneaky. It won't happen in the first couple of gears through a run. It's only when you're doing that long pull through the traps in top gear that things get really nasty. The blower gets hot, the chambers get hot and then you find yourself ripping chunks off the pistons from detonation. When it's cold you can crank in quite a bit of timing, but when you run it out the back door is when you find out that a very conservative tune is the key to long life with a blower and cast pistons.

What it looks like when you step over the line:

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd81/dnickle614/IMG_0612.jpg

great info guys. Im in the process of butting a big blower on my car. I think im going to fill it with 100 octane before I fire it off. jim

Thats a sobering reminder Damon.

Since detonation is the enemy, and from what I've read, you won't know until its to late, may or may not hear it, but if you do its probably already to late. I know later model engines had knock sensors. Is there anyway to incorperate these into older blocks? I don't mean having them affect the timing by altering a ignition box or anything fancy like that. From what I've read they can detect the slightest hint of detonation before you can even hear it. Is there anyway to modify a newer sensor to work, say, off of a light mounted in the cockpit, so that if it lights up even a little the user knows to back out of it? I've seen something similar with MSD through summit, but its almost 300 bucks, and has a progressive lighting system, 1 for a little, 5 for a lot, and inbetween. Doesn't look like it would be to difficult to setup. Anyone?

here you go

Thats exactly what I was looking to see, thanks a bunch.

Thats exactly what I was looking to see, thanks a bunch.

you got it but that is a BBC with an adapter for a dominator and a one inch spacer for brakes....8 in over the hood

Guess thats why they make hilborn scoops :P

You're right- you won't hear the detonation over the blower whine and exhaust note. Once you've blown a few up you start to pick up on the very subtle hints the engine gives- like the power upstairs getting a subtle "flat" feeling. Then chunks of piston come out the exhaust.

Those are hypereutectic pistons, by the way, and they were set with the ring gaps very wide, per manufacturer recommendation. Detonation in a boosted motor isn't gentle like in a modest N/A application. It does damage FAST. Like in a single dragstrip run, which is all it took to do the damage you see in that picture.

Forged pistons will last longer if you step over the line, but even they will fail much faster than you imagine is possible. Go lean or get greedy with the timing advance and it won't take long.

I don't know if you can retrofit a knock sensor with a warning light, but somebody probably makes a kit. How well that would work I have no idea. Stock setups seem to give guys with modified motors fits even on modern cars. Forget solid lifter cams, gear drives or anything that makes serious "noise". Even a loose exhaust bracket or accessory mounts can give false knock indications.

The most important thing is to never encounter detonation in the first place. That's why I recommend following the recipe. Low compression, modest blower cam and a tune that is ultra-conservative until you get a good amount of experience with a blower combo.

I've had both the 144 and the 177 on the same motor.

The 144 was running about 4-5psi, and the 177 ran 6-7psi.
The 177 was significantly taller, but the HEI fit fine on either.
Either will be fine for DD status, I was running the 144 as my only car just after HS, even barely able to afford gas! I couldn't give you gas numbers from it, as it was likely a lot less cause I could NOT keep my foot out of it.
The engine was a dead stock, REALLY cheap crate motor from one of those engine 'rebuilders' from the Recycler classifieds.

.

Watching a few video's on you tube, I can see where you're coming from. That blower whine is just something else. So I can imagine it'd just be to much fun to drive economically. :crazy: Every car show I go to I am always drawn to the blown cars, but it seems they are always monster 6 and 8-71's, which just look awesome, but very unpracticle. I've yet to see a setup with a miniblower other than here. With any luck I'll be able to find a deal on one. Other than lost timing for safety, I can't see any other downfall to Daily driving. I've even read of some cars take off the drive belt for any lengthy driving to cut down on parasitic lose and bump timing back up.....mind you these are usually bigger units, but the principle would still be the same no?

the new jegs catalog came today the 144 for a sbc is 2389.00 in the polished config with the teflon tipped rotors.


Mike

I've eyeballed that as well. Also been eyeballing the magnuson unit sold by edelbrock for around 2495 or so (Satin, no carb, just blower/intake/pulleys). It looks to be a smaller unit, 122cu vs 144 or 177, but its got that fancy blow-off looking valve to make up highway cruising, anyone with any experience with this one?

The Edelbrock design is much newer technology. It's got high-helix rotors in it for much improved efficiency vs. an old 142/144 with straight-cut rotors. That's how they can move as much or more air as the pysically larger units. They don't have the efficiency fall-off at higher RPMs like the older design units do. Efficiency in this case means basically the temp rise isn't as great. At a certain point a roots blower can get so inefficient that it's basically just getting boost from heating the air, not becuase it's moving any more air.

But from what I've read you can't beat a roots blower for that 'suck your head back past the headrest' feel, which is what makes driving these cars so much fun. There aren't to many reviews on the magnuson units, only that magnuson builds oem quality stuff, so its built to last. I did see one report where someone made over 700hp with one on water meth. so its got my intrest.

The Edelbrock/Maguson unit is still a roots blower, but the lobes are high-helix style.

The 142/144/174/177 are straight cut. Typical X-71 blowers are helical cut. The Eddy/Magnuson mini blower is high-helix. It's just a matter of how much twist they put in the rotors, but all of them are roots blowers (positive displacement air pumps, not centrifugal compressors like a turbo or centrifugal blower).

The Edelbrock/Maguson unit is still a roots blower, but the lobes are high-helix style.

The 142/144/174/177 are straight cut. Typical X-71 blowers are helical cut. The Eddy/Magnuson mini blower is high-helix. It's just a matter of how much twist they put in the rotors, but all of them are roots blowers (positive displacement air pumps, not centrifugal compressors like a turbo or centrifugal blower).


They weiand 144 I just bought has a helical cut rotors. They may have updated the rotors recently in these units.

Mike

So does the 177 wieand fit under the 6 inch cowl????? Or does everyone like to show them off.

I am running one with little to no issues. I have a 2" high filter under the hood and it juusst clears the hood.
http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l403/extinguisher911/100_4422.jpg

http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l403/extinguisher911/camrf01.jpg

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p371/slapi01/fenix/100-0009_IMG.jpg
http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p371/slapi01/fenix/P1100102.jpg
still going strong.... damon knows his stuff on these babies.

So does the 177 wieand fit under the 6 inch cowl????? Or does everyone like to show them off.

6 inch should about clear i believe, but why not show the people "hey hey looky what i got" -lol

MJOC, are you saying that weiand's gone to high-helix? i know the the 144 has teflon rotors/lower profile , but never knew the design was like Maguson

Weiand/Holley's picture on their website still shows straight-cut on the 177, but I'll take your word for it that maybe it's not up to date with what they're actually shipping. Link:

http://www.holley.com/data/products/pictures/large6506-1kit.jpg

Weiand/Holley's picture on their website still shows straight-cut on the 177, but I'll take your word for it that maybe it's not up to date with what they're actually shipping. Link:

http://www.holley.com/data/products/pictures/large6506-1kit.jpg

i have to call them now... -lol this is too much!!

So does the 177 wieand fit under the 6 inch cowl????? Or does everyone like to show them off.

That's a tough one... If I remember correctly... mine was about 5.75" over the stock hoodline... but I also made engine mounts that were about .50-.75" shorter. You'd be pushing it at the very least IMO.

if you lower the motor mounts , wont that disturb the angle on which the motor is suppostto be at ? or is the angle not that important. Anyhow id really like to put mine under a cowl hood . What kind of air cleaner do you run on your 177 under the 6" hood?

I am running one with little to no issues. I have a 2" high filter under the hood and it juusst clears the hood.
http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l403/extinguisher911/100_4422.jpg

http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l403/extinguisher911/camrf01.jpg

Nice , I'm liking that color

Good Job:cool:

if you lower the motor mounts , wont that disturb the angle on which the motor is suppostto be at ? or is the angle not that important. Anyhow id really like to put mine under a cowl hood . What kind of air cleaner do you run on your 177 under the 6" hood?

I would recommend checking the driveshaft angles. I also have a custom crossmember for my T56.. so, nothing is stock.

I didn't have a 6" hood. I had a stock hood cut out for a T/A style scoop that I had fabbed up. Got tired of that, and ran a street scoop exactly like slapi01's.

I am running one with little to no issues. I have a 2" high filter under the hood and it juusst clears the hood.
http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l403/extinguisher911/100_4422.jpg



Is that a drop base air celeaner? If it is with only a 2" filter I bet you're seriously choking off that motor.

looks like a drop base by the way it falls over to the linkage on it.. but i have been wrong many times before

Yes, drop base. My carb has the choke horn milled off. You really don't need a choke to get her running. Couple a pumps and it fires right up, keep your foot above idle and in 2 min you are good (when cold). Otherwise it fires up right away.

I have about a 1/2" clearance on the hood.

Hey all! Well i had to put the camaro in the enclosed trailer for the winter, to much going on with work, snowmobiling, etc, etc, but hope to be back in the garage by next week, The break was good but cant wait to get back in the shop, but anyway this is my B&M mini blower, I think its the same as the weiand 177, but I could be wrong, before I put it away for the winter I did mock up the fenders and hood and I think I can get away with a three inch cowl,

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll129/DanBreau/Picture123414.jpg

6 inch should about clear i believe, but why not show the people "hey hey looky what i got" -lol

MJOC, are you saying that weiand's gone to high-helix? i know the the 144 has teflon rotors/lower profile , but never knew the design was like Maguson


I am assuming they did when I looked at mine when it arrived at my door it had helix rotors in it.


Mike

got my 6 inch cowl hood to try to hide the 177 and well ...... its kinda tight in there. i only have about 2 inches between the hood and the top of the carb. The 144 is quite a bit smaller if people are fitting them under a 4 inch hood. I might have to lower the engine to gain some room.

I tried to include some pics but it says that they are over the size limit. how do i fix this??

Post them on Photobucket and then link them in here.

I'm interested in seeing the rotors but also the lower intake manifold opening (which is now probably shaped differently due to the change in rotor design).

Still waiting on that updated picture.

You can resize them using the paint program from windows. Under image hit resize, then pick a percentages, ie 50%, and it'll cut it down to half, save it, and the size of the file will be less.

Also spied a 142 unit on ebay for under a grand complete, thinking pretty hard about a bid.

what about using 10:1cr with a weiand 177 and meth injection?

Think you'd be playing with fire there, with no gloves on. Perhaps if you used 2 psi of boost, but I could see bad things happening.

Think you'd be playing with fire there, with no gloves on. Perhaps if you used 2 psi of boost, but I could see bad things happening.

really? I know low compression is usually better with boost but Holly told me I could run 10:1cr with 4lb of boost and that was on pump gas. I would think with meth injection, there wouldn't be any detonation. hmm

Would these run good with a 6/speed??

A 144