View Full Version : Oil pump installation questions???


NYH1
03-03-2010, 08:14:37 PM
I'm using THIS (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MEL-10552/) Melling Oil Pump, THIS (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MEL-12558/) Melling Oil Pump Pick Up and THIS (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-230-7004/) ARP Oil Pump Stud. The oil pump pick up bolts to the oil pump. I was told to set the clearance between the bottom of the pick up and the oil pan anywhere from 1/4" to 1/2". I set it right at 3/8". That's not from the bottom of the screen, that's from the lowest part of the pick up to the pan. Should I still tac weld the pick up to the oil pump?

Also, What should I torque the oil pump "stud" to the main cap at? And after that, what should I torque the bolt that go's on the stud that holds the pump at? I assume I should use ARP paste on both, right?

If I do tac weld the pick up to the pump I have to remove the bottom cap on the oil pump and the oil pump spring before welding. What should I re torque the four bolts on the bottom of the oil pump to? And what do I torque the plug that holds the spring in place to?

Thanks, NYH1! ;)

Cardinal
03-03-2010, 09:41:15 PM
What engine are you putting this on? IMHO, unless you are running a high performance engine with all of the oil control devices (cam galley oil restrictors for a solid lifter cam, windage tray, crank scraper on the pan rail, bigger oil pan, just to name a few things) then you have the wrong oil pump.

If all you have is a stock to mild hydraulic cam engine, all you need is a regular volume and pressure oil pump. Summit will gladly refund your money and get your the right oil pump. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MEL-M55/

Next is setting the oil pump pickup clearance distance between the pickup and the pan. It should be from 3/8" to 1/2". As for permanently attaching the pickup to the oil pump, I prefer to either braze it unless I have access to a TIG welder. I remove ALL of the parts from the pump so that they can't be damaged by the heat from welding. After it is welded, I put it in DRY sand to let it cool as long as it takes to get back to room temperature.

Also, be VERY careful which Melling oil pump you buy. Read this post that was posted here which still confuses me but spells out exactly which oil pump NOT to use EVER: http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65870&highlight=melling

Rick WI
03-03-2010, 09:56:47 PM
Pump will work great for you.

Height is to the screen. That's where its measured. Stud isn't torqued. Finger tight or lightly snugged to bottom. Nut 65 ft lbs. No specs I have seen on pickup just tighten pretty snug. I locktight. No need to weld and never seen done. That is why they call it a bolt on!

bigbear40
03-03-2010, 10:01:32 PM
Why is it so wrong of NYH1 to go with a high volume oil pump?

Rick WI
03-03-2010, 10:08:43 PM
There is nothing wrong with using that pump.

yobin67
03-03-2010, 10:10:06 PM
I have the same pump for my new engine.I have read about this pickup having issues.The bolts can come loose,or the gasket could fail. I had a custom pickup made for mine that both presses in and bolts on.To me this is a much better and safer setup.

Here is a generic pic of the pickup I used.
http://www.kevkoracing.com/images/melling_pickup_full.gif

I called them and they made the pickup to fit my 8.25" deep pan
This is mine
http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj363/yobin67/oilpumppickup.jpg

AJ_72
03-03-2010, 10:15:50 PM
Why is it so wrong of NYH1 to go with a high volume oil pump?

Actually, there's nothing "wrong" per say, but a high volume pump can run the sump dry at higher RPMs.

Mine does at around 4,800 RPM through 1st and 2nd gear up until 5,600 when it shifts.

A higher capacity sump, smoothing the drain back routes and limiting how much oil goes where it really isn't needed are the things that should be done when using a high volume pump.

NYH1
03-03-2010, 11:31:11 PM
It's going in the mild 385 stroker motor I'm building. It's going to have a hydraulic flat tappet cam. It won't turn over 56-5800 RPM's.

The Melling oil pump (pt#10552) that I'm using only has approximately a 10% over stock volume output. It doesn't have the typical 25 to 30% increase over stock volume output that most high volume oil pumps have. It's a lot closer to a stock volume oil pump then it is a typical high volume oil pump.

It's one of Mellings performance series oil pumps. It's not one of their OEM oil pumps. I'm using a 5 quart oil pan instead of the stock 4 quart oil pan. All my oil returns routes have been thoroughly cleaned up to increase/help the oil returning to the pan.

NYH1
03-03-2010, 11:34:18 PM
yobin67, my pick up attaches to the pump just like yours does. What type of problems did you have or hear about with the Melling pick up?

NYH1
03-03-2010, 11:36:32 PM
Pump will work great for you.

Height is to the screen. That's where its measured. Stud isn't torqued. Finger tight or lightly snugged to bottom. Nut 65 ft lbs. No specs I have seen on pickup just tighten pretty snug. I locktight. No need to weld and never seen done. That is why they call it a bolt on!
Thanks for the info Rick! :bowtie:

bigbear40
03-03-2010, 11:36:38 PM
Why would it run the sump dry?

Thanks.

NYH1
03-03-2010, 11:39:41 PM
Why would it run the sump dry?

Thanks.I don't think the pump I'm using will run the sump dry at all. Like I said, it's only has a 10% increase over stock volume output and I'm going to have an extra quart of oil in the pan.

yobin67
03-04-2010, 12:23:06 AM
The pickup you listed, http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MEL-12558/ does not press in. It only uses the 2 bolts and a gasket to hold it on. The pickup I have has an extended tube that presses in,and it bolts in after it's pressed in to place. I have seen pics on the net of the Melling pickup breaking off at the flange,and have heard of failed gaskets and bolts comming loose.

Here are picks of both.Can you see the difference?
http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj363/yobin67/melling_pickup_full.gifhttp://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj363/yobin67/mel-12558_w.jpg

bigbear40
03-04-2010, 12:24:03 AM
But if I go with in the future a 7 quart oil pan and a moroso high volume oil pump wouldnt that be a good combination?

bigbear40
03-04-2010, 12:27:03 AM
I have seen pics on the net of the Melling pickup breaking off at the flange,and have heard of failed gaskets and bolts comming loose.

Use loctite.

yobin67
03-04-2010, 12:32:22 AM
I use loctite on almost everything,but a press fit and a bolt on flange is the better setup in my opinion.

Here is another Kevco pickup,not mine,but you can see how they are made
http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj363/yobin67/thx_Kevco_pickup.jpg

Louich
03-04-2010, 12:48:52 AM
i have ran a hv pump in a stock pan at 7300 rpm with no problems.

bigbear40
03-04-2010, 12:50:26 AM
My stock oil pump has been working for the life of the camaro, I don't think the factory oil pumps are pressed in or welded, pretty sure theres just a few bolts holding it in.

Louich
03-04-2010, 12:59:59 AM
My stock oil pump has been working for the life of the camaro, I don't think the factory oil pumps are pressed in or welded, pretty sure theres just a few bolts holding it in.

factory are pressed in.

NYH1
03-04-2010, 01:03:20 AM
But if I go with in the future a 7 quart oil pan and a moroso high volume oil pump wouldnt that be a good combination?
Personally I wouldn't go with a high volume oil pump as in "the typical 25 to 30% increase over stock output" unless as others have mentioned, you have increased bearing clearances, really high RPM motor ect. and that type of set up. Typical high volume oil pumps can put added stress and wear on the distributor, distributor gear and cam gear. That's why I choose the pump I did. A 10% increase isn't much. Just MHO, YMMV!

Cardinal
03-04-2010, 01:06:58 AM
The "problem" with a high volume oil pump on a stock engine with a 5 quart pan is that when the engine is held at high rpms, it will pump all of the oil to the top of the engine leaving the 5 quart oil pan empty. Most of the time you don't know that it is doing this unless you see the oil pressure gauge fluctuate (which most electronic gauges won't). Oiling (or lack of oiling) has NEVER been a problem with a "stock" oil pump. However, using a high volume and/or high pressure pump without paying attention to the oil being able to return to the pan fast enough to replenish the pump IS a problem. That's why I asked what engine he had and advised AGAINST a high volume pump on a stock engine.

+1 for the added stress mentioned above.

NYH1
03-04-2010, 01:07:27 AM
yobin67, I've actually thought about fabricating a bracket to weld onto the other side on the pick up screen and connecting it to the other side of the oil pump. Everyone I've mentioned that to told it wasn't necessary. Now I don't know.

NYH1
03-04-2010, 01:10:43 AM
The "problem" with a high volume oil pump on a stock engine with a 5 quart pan is that when the engine is held at high rpms, it will pump all of the oil to the top of the engine leaving the 5 quart oil pan empty. Most of the time you don't know that it is doing this unless you see the oil pressure gauge fluctuate (which most electronic gauges won't). Oiling (or lack of oiling) has NEVER been a problem with a "stock" oil pump. However, using a high volume and/or high pressure pump without paying attention to the oil being able to return to the pan fast enough to replenish the pump IS a problem. That's why I asked what engine he had and advised AGAINST a high volume pump on a stock engine.

+1 for the added stress mentioned above.It's ONLY a 10% increase. Stock pumps could fluctuate by that much.

Rick WI
03-04-2010, 01:30:07 AM
It's ONLY a 10% increase. Stock pumps could fluctuate by that much.

Exactly, some folks don't understand what you are asking and shooting from the hip without technically knowing the specs on that pump.

I will say this, after using this pump for.....oh I think 9 years. 8 years for sure. That pick up at the pipe to screen case joint can crack under really hard duty. Saw it once. The pickup itself won't go anywhere if locktighted on. I use red. If you want to do a bit more to sleep at night go for it, can't hurt anything. You'll have great idle oil pressure and should see 65 to 68ish at upper RPM for pressure. Never hurts to take apart and check the gears but never had an issue. You aren't going to drain your pan unless the top end holds oil much worse than a typical Chevy engine.

bigbear40
03-04-2010, 02:19:44 AM
Rick WI are you saying that it's alright to go with a high volume oil pump on a mildly modded engine?

Thanks.

Rick WI
03-04-2010, 03:07:44 AM
I have not seen a situation where a high volume pump is the root cause of an oiling issue. Besides the volume is capped at the pressure relief, at pressure it bypasses into the pan. If enough volume flows with a standard pump to give you 60 PSIG and a high volume does the same pressure and bypasses what's the dif? The dif is that the high volume will give you better pressure and more volume at lower RPM, like at idle and mid RPM. If you are holding oil in the top end it's a return issue, either in the heads or valley. That's not solve with restrictors either, which generally are going out of favor as the LIFTER is the restrictor. Drainback and windage are what needs to be controlled.

One of the main jobs of oil is to cool, so that's why you don't want to restrict oiling to the top end, can be hard on springs for one thing. Also, for a stock engine and stock pan there really is no need for any fancy pump. I do agree a stock pump is just fine. Even a mild engine it's fine. Even in a 2bbl restricted circle track engine it's fine, although we shim springs to get 70 PSI pressure in that application. With a non stock pan with 5 quarts and fairly serious build the Melling Select pump as show by the poster is a nice upgrage, Moroso also makes a nice upgrade pump. Even with a stock pan, that pump isn't going to "suck it dry" from my experience.

bigbear40
03-04-2010, 03:19:42 AM
Rick, thank you for the explanation. I really appreciate it.

hhott71
03-07-2010, 04:39:07 AM
tac weld the bolts to the flange

NYH1
03-07-2010, 02:07:27 PM
A guy on another site recommended using "safety wire" on the pick up bolts, and even the oil pump bottom bolts. The more I look at it, the more I'm afraid to weld it because I don't want to ruin the gasket. The gasket does seem to be in there pretty well. I was at Harbor Freight the other day so I picked up some stainless steel safety wire just in case I decide to use it. It was only $1.50.

79_406camaro
03-07-2010, 04:27:00 PM
Using a truck filter if you have the clearance will help with oil capacities a little.

Rick WI
03-07-2010, 04:35:01 PM
Safety wire is the option not welding.

bbc nova
08-31-2010, 02:12:25 AM
Sorry but im going to thread steal for a min.
should I use a stock volume pump in my mud truck engine? Flat tops, small chamber 350 or a m-55HV???? Unknown mileage, stock pan.

Can a m-55HV be run with the stock rod or do I need a hardened drive?

Im assuming with a manufacture date of Apr 10 the problems are sorted out?

NYH1
08-31-2010, 03:00:56 AM
bbc nova, I'd run the same Melling 10552 Performance Oil Pump that I use. It's one of Mellings Performance Series Oil Pump. It only has a 10% volume out put over a stock oil pump.

My motor idles at 700 RPM, my warm oil pressure with 5W-30 at idle is 18 to 20 psi on 90 days. It'll go up to 65 psi or so when it's warm and I get into it. I've been pretty happy with it so far. It's a good pump. ;)

bbc nova
08-31-2010, 04:53:23 AM
bbc nova, I'd run the same Melling 10552 Performance Oil Pump that I use. It's one of Mellings Performance Series Oil Pump. It only has a 10% volume out put over a stock oil pump.

My motor idles at 700 RPM, my warm oil pressure with 5W-30 at idle is 18 to 20 psi on 90° days. It'll go up to 65 psi or so when it's warm and I get into it. I've been pretty happy with it so far. It's a good pump. ;)

Yours was $69 the 55hv is $32 the hv is 25% over stock.

NYH1
08-31-2010, 08:03:21 PM
Yours was $69 the 55hv is $32 the hv is 25% over stock.
Yes my pump was $69. It's one of Mellings Performance Series Oil Pumps. IIRC, the 55 series was the series that were breaking. There is a thread on this site about that.

I wouldn't use a high volume oil pump unless my engines clearances required it. A 10% increase in volume out put isn't much more then a stock pump. Plus a stock pump could fluctuate plus or minus 10%. Using a high volume oil pump (25% increase in volume) can cause increase wear on the cam and distributor gears, more strain on the oil pump shaft, they take more power to turn then a a stock oil pump and can increase the oil temperature. You should also use a larger oil pan with them. Just a few things to consider.

BADBLACKZ
09-01-2010, 09:37:13 AM
I use the same pump as the OP.
I also just got done putting the engine back in my car after the pickup fell off and sucked one of the bolts into the pump...Needless to say the pump locked up in turn twisting the distributor shaft and "wankering" the pump drive shaft....
Just info to ponder......

I am waiting for the UPS dude to show up as I type with the new shaft from MSD.....

NYH1
09-01-2010, 07:01:17 PM
BADBLACKZ, how did you install the pick up to the pump? I used red Loc Tite and safety wire on the pick up bolts.

BADBLACKZ
09-01-2010, 09:25:13 PM
Same here, wasn't easy drilling those stainless bolts !

NYH1
09-02-2010, 01:01:47 AM
Wow, you used safety wire and they still came out! That sucks, big time! :screwup:

BADBLACKZ
09-02-2010, 09:35:00 AM
Wow, you used safety wire and they still came out! That sucks, big time! :screwup:
No, no, I DIDNT use safety wire the first time.........This time I did....:crazy:

hhott71
09-02-2010, 04:08:21 PM
Should I still tac weld the pick up to the oil pump?
You should tack weld the screws to the pickup.
No you don't have to touch the spring or anything else.

Brazing the pickup itself to the cast iron requires a lot of heat for a prolonged period.

A quick wire-feed tack of the bolts to the steel pickup is over and done in 2 seconds, cool with water afterward.

The Mellings pumpp comes with the same ARP intermediate shaft. Use normal torque values. 45-55 ft lbs (IIRC) on the Oil pump to main cap mounting bolt.