View Full Version : AFR 355 vs. Vortec 383


Led Zep
03-14-2008, 09:19:47 PM
Starting with a 350 .30 over,and looking to run pump gas,say 10ish max.THe AFR's are around 1500,and 383 bottom end and vortecs put me in about the same ballpark,price wise.Flat tappet cam,suggest specs?

Pros and Cons,both engines.How would they stack up against one another?Does the extra flow of the AFR surpass the torque advantage of the 383?More or less,if you had 1500 cash,which would you build.Thanks.

CamaroMan79
03-14-2008, 09:22:26 PM
IMO I would build the 383 w/ the vortecs because you can always swap out heads later on.

KylePBZ
03-14-2008, 10:32:54 PM
Get the heads now, you can always put them on a bigger short block later on! lol

camaronut79
03-14-2008, 10:39:11 PM
build the 383 then find a used set of AFR's:cool:

LILRED406
03-15-2008, 12:02:41 AM
build the 383 then find a used set of AFR's:cool:
I agree.

vortecs are really good i seen a article a few years ago were they tested the 100% cnc afr 180s vs bone stock vortecs
the afrs made like 55 mores horse but lost 5 lbs of tourqe.

I think a touched up set could make 500 horse 500 tork on a healthy 383.

Led Zep
03-18-2008, 10:46:54 PM
So,the 383 would be the better bang for buck motor?Could someone DD or EA both engines,say AFR 180's vs Vortec 170's,using a flat tappet cam,using the good old comp 280 duration/480 lift.Thanks.

BlackDog82
03-18-2008, 11:01:54 PM
..... a member on a Corvette-based Forum I frequent has a 9.7:1 CR 383 SBC, iron Vortec heads, CCXE262 cam, Lars Qjet, Dynomax headers, 2.5" duals, 3000 stall converter, TH350, 3.73:1 rear:
his C3 runs 12.90s @ 105 MPH on rock-hard BFG T/A Radials, which isn't bad for a 'nuthin'-fancy' car

fiscus
03-18-2008, 11:08:58 PM
I have a 9.3:1 vortec 383 with an xe-262 in my camaro, 600cfm carb, 2.41 gears and a wide ratio saginaw tranny, and it ran a 13.87@106.2mph (never even got into 4th gear!). That was my first time out and on ancient 14" tires with a 2.29 60 ft, and 87 octane. I just changed out my gears to 3.42 and I'm putting drag radials, subframe connectors and a new transmission and hope to get down to a 12.9 with it!

Marv D
03-18-2008, 11:12:12 PM
I'll say this again.... Pick the best head you can possibly afford, FORGET about everything else for now,, start with the heads.

BonzoHansen
03-18-2008, 11:21:38 PM
New guy has a funny screen name.... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v359/SIBLY/Emos/Zoso1.jpg

79Z-28
03-18-2008, 11:26:10 PM
You need good heads on either,don't go cheap on the heads but build a 383.ck out www.competitionproducts.com they have some good prices on heads.we are looking at the canfields right now.

rustbucket79
03-19-2008, 02:43:09 AM
Seat of the pants is going to be won by the 383 hands down, and in a typical unoptimized street/strip car, will be faster at the track.

That being said, a good set of heads (if you already have a good useable 350 bottom end) will work well with what you have and grow with you for many years to come. I fully believe that an AFR 195'd 383 or 406 has the potential for pump gas 10's in an optimized low 3000# car.

I'm probably the spokesperson here for hanging on to cylinder heads the longest, I've had my iron GM Bowtie heads on several different engines, and have owned them for about 14 years now. That's a pretty decent investment, but then I have little doubt that a set of the AFR 195's would trounce them. ;)

kenny77
03-19-2008, 03:00:14 AM
Wow Marv maybe out first disagreement. LMAO. I say build the 383 with quality components.

I raised the issue of Alum heads VS Vortecs on this board and the answer was unless I am racing and shaving micro seconds don't bother with Alum heads.

I love my 383 with Vortecs, more motor than should be allowed on the street


+1.

For the street thats my combo too. Well.....at least now it is.


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t110/camaropigs2000/DSC01003.jpg

bigdud5435
03-19-2008, 03:24:01 AM
start with the AFR's on any motor and you will not be disapointed.. never

Jim Stokkeland
03-19-2008, 06:45:25 AM
New guy has a funny screen name.... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v359/SIBLY/Emos/Zoso1.jpg


The new guy has an awesome screen name...welcome aboard Zep!!

Led Zep
03-19-2008, 10:07:18 PM
The new guy has an awesome screen name...welcome aboard Zep!!
What,my username?Oh just some little band from across the pond.:p

BlackDog82
03-19-2008, 10:19:37 PM
What,my username?Oh just some little band from across the pond.:p

I have 5-7 cassette tapes..... they are ALL from that little band from across the pond

Marv D
03-19-2008, 11:05:07 PM
I have 5-7 cassette tapes..... they are ALL from that little band from across the pond

Not to cary this too far off track but......
I can top that,, I have the first 4 on original vinyl, and every one they ever made on my IPOD. Can't say I like em all as much as the first 4, but if you want to have a GREAT evening in front of the big screen with the home theater sound system kicking,, Find a copy of the 2DVD set "Live at the Royal Albert Hall (1970) crank it up and KICK @$$ It reminds me of being at TCC in 72 or 73 (can't remember too much about the 70's) when LZ, was touring. At least I 'think' I was there???????

And for those really into classical rock (and Pink FLoyd) If you go see one show for the rest of your life,,,, GO SEE THE ROGER WATERS / Pnk Floyd SHOW,, Freeking unbelivable!!!!!

zachisageek
03-19-2008, 11:16:10 PM
..... a member on a Corvette-based Forum I frequent has a 9.7:1 CR 383 SBC, iron Vortec heads, CCXE262 cam, Lars Qjet, Dynomax headers, 2.5" duals, 3000 stall converter, TH350, 3.73:1 rear:
his C3 runs 12.90s @ 105 MPH on rock-hard BFG T/A Radials, which isn't bad for a 'nuthin'-fancy' car

My combo ran 12.93 @ 110 with a 2.165 60' not even spinning the tires. It did brake loose at 60mph on one run though...

unknown compression
225/75/15 truck tires
rpm air-gap
280H magnum cam
1.5 roller rockers
stock converter

Led Zep
03-20-2008, 09:08:44 AM
Well,I got DD 2000,still trying to work out the kinks.Will post specs and output later today.I'm guessing it will be a horsepower vs. torque battle.

70Camaro406
03-20-2008, 02:04:09 PM
After comparing on the DD, I say go with the 355 and the AFR heads, then get a good matched cam for the heads, and let her scream. Coming from someone who owns AFR heads (210 100% CNC'd) you'll never regret getting the heads. But better yet, go ahead and get the 195's, so if and when you upgrade to the 383, you'll be set.

All tests were with the same hyd cam, single plane, and actual printed flow numbers for the heads.

A - 383 - Vortecs - 383 hp @ 5500, 413 tq @ 4500
B - 355 - AFR 180's - 448 @ 6500, 417 tq @ 5000
C - 355 - AFR 195's - 453 @ 6500, 419 tq @ 5000
D - 355 - AFR 195's - midsize solid cam - 474 @ 6500, 434 @ 5000
E - 383 - AFR 180's - 450 @ 6000, 435 tq @ 5000
F - 383 - AFR 195's - 454 @ 6000, 437 tq @ 5000
G - 383 - AFR 195's - midsize solid cam - 476 @ 6000, 454 tq @ 5000

Now, I put each of these into my car (1970 Camaro, 3550 lbs, TH350 using 3500 stall, 4.10's) on Desktop Drag and ran it...here are those results...note the letter designation of which engine was used for the corresponding ET.

-Engine.......shift RPM.....60'......ET......MPH
-383-A -------6000----1.79---12.39---109
-355-B -------6500----1.80---12.17---112
-355-C -------6500----1.83---12.16---113
-355-D -------6500----1.80---11.98---115 - AFR 195's, Solid cam--my pick
-383-E -------6500----1.78---11.99---114
-383-F -------6500----1.77---11.97---114
-383-G -------6500----1.75---11.78---116

fabio
03-20-2008, 02:13:59 PM
After comparing on the DD, I say go with the 355 and the AFR heads, then get a good matched cam for the heads, and let her scream. Coming from someone who owns AFR heads (210 100% CNC'd) you'll never regret getting the heads. But better yet, go ahead and get the 195's, so if and when you upgrade to the 383, you'll be set.

All tests were with the same hyd cam, single plane, and actual printed flow numbers for the heads.

A - 383 - Vortecs - 383 hp @ 5500, 413 tq @ 4500
B - 355 - AFR 180's - 448 @ 6500, 417 tq @ 5000
C - 355 - AFR 195's - 453 @ 6500, 419 tq @ 5000
D - 355 - AFR 195's - midsize solid cam - 474 @ 6500, 434 @ 5000
E - 383 - AFR 180's - 450 @ 6000, 435 tq @ 5000
F - 383 - AFR 195's - 454 @ 6000, 437 tq @ 5000
G - 383 - AFR 195's - midsize solid cam - 476 @ 6000, 454 tq @ 5000

Now, I put each of these into my car (1970 Camaro, 3550 lbs, TH350 using 3500 stall, 4.10's) on Desktop Drag and ran it...here are those results...note the letter designation of which engine was used for the corresponding ET.

-Engine.......shift RPM.....60'......ET......MPH
-383-A -------6000----1.79---12.39---109
-355-B -------6500----1.80---12.17---112
-355-C -------6500----1.83---12.16---113
-355-D -------6500----1.80---11.98---115 - AFR 195's, Solid cam--my pick
-383-E -------6500----1.78---11.99---114
-383-F -------6500----1.77---11.97---114
-383-G -------6500----1.75---11.78---116

what cam did you use for these tests and compression? Pretty cool though, if it was me I would copy hhots engine. I think it's canfields, 355, 11.1 comp, and a crane hy roller. Look at his times and those heads are only 1000 bucks at competition products.

70Camaro406
03-20-2008, 02:25:02 PM
what cam did you use for these tests and compression? Pretty cool though, if it was me I would copy hhots engine. I think it's canfields, 355, 11.1 comp, and a crane hy roller. Look at his times and those heads are only 1000 bucks at competition products.

I just used 9.5:1 compression, single plane intake, an old grind that was in my last combo--Crane Sat Night Special solid lifter cam -lift - 0.518 Int 0.536 Ex, dur @ 0.050 - 244 Int 252 Ex.

I still think it's all in the heads and cam choice...I went from a GM 186 heads and a solid cam in my 406 to the AFR 210's and roller cam, and it was a COMPLETELY different animal. I bet I can make a 307 with AFRs, roller cam, etc, out run a Vortec-headed 383.

EDIT - I want to make it perfectly clear that I have nothing against 383's or Vortec's or both...just making a point that any engine can run average or exceptional. It's all in the cam/heads/intake combo.

70Camaro406
03-20-2008, 02:32:04 PM
those heads are only 1000 bucks at competition products.

And Comp Products also has AFR Eliminator heads for only $1500.

zachisageek
03-20-2008, 02:48:19 PM
Also, in my Hot Rod book, they took HT383 crate motor with vortec heads, 9.6:1 compression and a very similar setup to mine, with the only difference being a roller XR282 cam, 1.6 roller rockers, and demon 750 carb, they made ~450 hp @ 5600 and 499 tq @ 4100. Engine dyno of course.

I understand that would be a "magazine" build, but I think the desktop dyno numbers are a little low.

Unless this is a drag only motor, I would go with the lower RPM higher torque combo, personal preference.

onebad82z
03-20-2008, 03:26:10 PM
D - 355 - AFR 195's - midsize solid cam - 474 @ 6500, 434 @ 5000

-355-D -------6500----1.80---11.98---115 - AFR 195's, Solid cam--my pick



Nice...smells a lil like my combo....

RustoRod
03-20-2008, 04:26:39 PM
I would go with the 355 and AFR heads. You can put those heads on any small block and because they're aluminum you can get away with more compression. Try comparing a 10.5 :1 355 against a 10:1 383. With the AFR combo I would use a custom compcam with 274 XFI lobes for intake and exhaust on a 108 LSA and 1.6 rockers. This would give .538 lift and 230 dur @ .050. Just my thoughts on spending someone else's money.:bowtie: This is a flat tappet cam.

yobin67
03-20-2008, 08:59:07 PM
I like the 355 with AFR heads idea myself.Torque is always a good thing, but any lack of it you might have with the 355 can be made up with cam choice and more gear.My little 355 was built in 1989,with 1 freshen up thru the years,and just keeps going faster!

70Camaro406
03-20-2008, 11:46:24 PM
I would go with the 355 and AFR heads. You can put those heads on any small block and because they're aluminum you can get away with more compression. Try comparing a 10.5 :1 355 against a 10:1 383. With the AFR combo I would use a custom compcam with 274 XFI lobes for intake and exhaust on a 108 LSA and 1.6 rockers. This would give .538 lift and 230 dur @ .050. Just my thoughts on spending someone else's money.:bowtie:

How about this...
--AFR 195's
--Lunati hyd roller - 50162-
-lift:
Int -0.525
Ex - 0.540
-dur @ 0.050:
Int - 242
Ex - 252
110 lobe sep
--10.5:1 comp for both engines
--single plane

Again, my Camaro and setup is being used for these comparisons on DD

Engine.......hp...............torque..............60'.......ET.......MPH
355----528 @ 6500---487 @ 5000------1.68---11.41----120
383----530 @ 6000---509 @ 5000------1.64---11.25----121

LILRED406
03-21-2008, 11:12:41 AM
[QUOTE=70Camaro406]After comparing on the DD, I say go with the 355 and the AFR heads, then get a good matched cam for the heads, and let her scream. Coming from someone who owns AFR heads (210 100% CNC'd) you'll never regret getting the heads. But better yet, go ahead and get the 195's, so if and when you upgrade to the 383, you'll be set.
All tests were with the same hyd cam, single plane, and actual printed flow numbers for the heads.
A - 383 - Vortecs - 383 hp @ 5500, 413 tq @ 4500
383 1.1 per cube = 421.3
Your numbers here dont make sense a 383 w vortecs with a decent cam will make more then one horse pure cubic inch each. your posting the numbers at peak also your avg numbers between 1500 - 6000 would be a better way to do it.
unless he has a 350 built already go with the 383 they cost the same to build.

my freind has a 85 montecarlo 3650lbs w/ driver put in a scoggin dickey crate motor gm 330 horse 350 (vortec heads) put air gap intake and a 600 holley vac ,stock converter ,shift kit ,peg leg 373
2.2 60 foot 13.1 et 107mph never went in to motor, no roller rockers nothing.

oh ya the cam the comes with them is 430 lift,if it were a 383 with a decent cam low 12,s easy a little touch up in the heads 11.8s easy.

unless your joe sherman a 307 with afrs would get blasted by a 383 w/vortecs

chp mag did a test 100cnc 180 afrs vs stock vortecs the vortec made 4 more lbs more of tork. a 383 with touched up vortec will trounce a 350 afr and not have to spin as high wont need a high stall and deep gears to do it touqe rules the street .peaky horse is better suited to track.

Led Zep
03-21-2008, 12:34:19 PM
Thanks for all the input so far.Thus far,I am new to DD so I am using baseline #'s for BOTH engines-

750 CFM carb/Dual Plane
Cam 282/.500 lift FT
Small tube headers
Comp 10:1

Horsepower and Torque as follows

AFR195 350 Vortec 383
RPM HP TQ HP TQ
2000 138 362 150 392
2500 179 376 192 403
3000 221 387 233 407
3500 269 403 281 421
4000 316 414 328 431
4500 360 420 369 431
5000 397 417 400 420
5500 423 404 415 396
6000 433 379 410 359
6500 435 352

Led Zep
03-21-2008, 01:06:49 PM
Average horspower and torque numbers,from 2000 rpm til peak HP-
350 HP 317 TQ 391. 383 HP 296 TQ 412.Now for a freak number,The 350 averaged exactly 21 more horsepower than the 383,but the 383 averaged exactly 21 ft lbs more torque.

The 350 has more usable rpm(6500 peak vs. 5500 peak 383)
The 383 has a wider torque curve(TQ400+ 2500rpm vs 2000rpm350)

Now I'm really dazed and confused?

BonzoHansen
03-21-2008, 01:48:11 PM
I like pics better, lol


Horsepower and Torque as follows

AFR195 350 Vortec 383
RPM HP TQ HP TQ
2000 138 362 150 392
2500 179 376 192 403
3000 221 387 233 407
3500 269 403 281 421
4000 316 414 328 431
4500 360 420 369 431
5000 397 417 400 420
5500 423 404 415 396
6000 433 379 410 359
6500 435 352

70Camaro406
03-21-2008, 03:27:12 PM
Your numbers here dont make sense a 383 w vortecs with a decent cam will make more then one horse pure cubic inch each. your posting the numbers at peak also your avg numbers between 1500 - 6000 would be a better way to do it.

I didn't feel like typing that much, but I will if you need me to.



unless your joe sherman a 307 with afrs would get blasted by a 383 w/vortecs

I'll take that challenge. :);)

a 383 with touched up vortec will trounce a 350 afr and not have to spin as high wont need a high stall and deep gears to do it. Hardly...you have much to learn young grasshoppa. Vortecs are good, but with the 170cc runners and 1.94 valves, even "touched-up," they don't compare to the AFR 180's, and certainly don't compare to the AFR 195, Street or Comp ported, with 195cc runners, 2.05 or 2.08 valves, and gobs of flow at every lift point.

Here is a full chart of the specs on both engines again, 10.5:1, same cam, intake, carb, exhaust, 3600 stall, 4.10's, weather, other than 50lbs lighter for alum heads...just cid and head differences...

383 - Vortecs
RPM.....HP.....TQ
2000--148---388
2500--195---409
3000--246---430
3500--305---458
4000--363---476
4500--413---482
5000--452---475
5500--465---444
6000--459---402
6500--435---351
7000--397---297
7500--354---247
8000--293---192
AVG--348HP-388TQ
2000-6500 RPM AVG - 348HP-431TQ

355 AFR 195's Comp
RPM.....HP.....TQ
2000--134---352
2500--177---371
3000--226---396
3500--287---431
4000--350---459
4500--410---479
5000--465---488
5500--502---479
6000--524---459
6500--531---429
7000--519---389
7500--501---350
8000--458---300
AVG--391HP-414TQ
2500-7500 RPM AVG -408HP-430TQ

Engine..heads.....HP..TQ..shift RPM..60'...1/8 ...MPH...1/4 ET...MPH
-383--Vortecs--465-482---6000---1.65--7.47--93---11.73---115.5

-355-AFR 195's-531-488---6600---1.67--7.29--97---11.39---120.4 ***

*** = trounce;)

Okay, now tell me how the Vortec-headed 383 trounces the AFR 355? The 355 even produces more torque. The 383/Vortecs might be enough for most people, but myself, having had both a torquey 5500 rpm engine for the street, and now a 6500-6900 RPM screamer, the high winder is loads more fun. :) ;)

70Camaro406
03-21-2008, 03:43:42 PM
Thanks for all the input so far.Thus far,I am new to DD so I am using baseline #'s for BOTH engines-

750 CFM carb/Dual Plane
Cam 282/.500 lift FT
Small tube headers
Comp 10:1

Horsepower and Torque as follows

AFR195 350 Vortec 383
RPM HP TQ HP TQ
2000 138 362 150 392
2500 179 376 192 403
3000 221 387 233 407
3500 269 403 281 421
4000 316 414 328 431
4500 360 420 369 431
5000 397 417 400 420
5500 423 404 415 396
6000 433 379 410 359
6500 435 352

Here are the track numbers using the same constants as my previous post using while your hp and tq numbers:

Engine/heads.........HP...TQ...Shift RPM...60'...1/8...MPH.....1/4......MPH
-383/vortecs------415-431----5500---1.718-7.86-88.0--12.344--110.2
-355/AFR 195's----435-420----6500---1.735-7.73-90.0--12.125--112.1

I do this kind of stuff all of the time. Let me know if you need anything else checked.;)

RustoRod
03-21-2008, 04:08:29 PM
I read the CHP build up also. The detail in the fine print of vortec vs. AFR was the 1/2 point drop in compression when they went to the AFR heads. The afr heads also made around 65 more horsepower. The article was titled the impersonator and impersonator 2 if someone wants to look it up. On to the desktop dyno debate. The flow numbers in the files included with the program don't always seem accurate. I read the magazines too. I look for tests done at reputable places as far as flowbech and dyno work go. The numbers generated in those tests do not often match the flowfiles and hence the power output in the computer program. As far as that goes what is a high flow vs. a max flow intake ? This is all food for thought. I see a set of AFR heads being able to make 500 hp on a 350. If your bottom end can't handle that then you need to build the 383.:bowtie:

onebad82z
03-21-2008, 04:08:58 PM
This could be interesting to compare the DD numbers being posted with real track numbers...

Anyone wanna DD my combo? Then I should be able to get some track times later this summer and post back to see how far off DD is?

I will "man up" as the AFR 355 vehicle? Specs below...

Anyone wanna do the same with a vortec 383 combo?

1982 Camaro Z28:

Engine:
'82 350 4 Bolt bored .030" over (secured with ARP main studs #134-5601 and ARP head studs #134-4001)
Manley Forged 10:1 Sportsmaster Flat Top pistons (full floating/2 valve reliefs)
Speed Pro file fit plasma moly ring set # 9771.035 (file fit to .024" first & second rings)
Summit Pro Line 4340 forged crank and rods (3.48 stroke crank / 5.7" length rods)
Comp Cams Pro Magnum steel roller rockers 1.52-3/8 stud
Cloyes "True" double roller timing chain #9-3100
Edelbrock Performer RPM Air Gap dual plane #7501
Speed Demon 750 DP carb (choke horn milled, blended into primaries)
7.25" Fluidampr SFI harmonic damper
Moroso 6 quart pan 8.25" deep #20180

Ignition:
MSD Pro Billet #8361 distributor (w/ Crane adjustable vacuum advance unit)
Digital 6 Plus ignition box #6520
Blaster SS Coil

Exhaust:
Hooker #2210 1 3/4" full length headers with slip fit reducers (Flowmaster #R3025 / 3" to 2.5")
Dual 2.5" into single 3" outlet y pipe (Flowmaster merge collector #Y250300 - 2.5'' Inlet to 3'' Outlet)
Single 3" exhaust with Hooker Aero Chamber muffler #21512.

Drivetrain:
Lakewood steel scattershield #15015
Hays 153T billet steel flywheel
10.4" Centerforce dual friction clutch
'99 T56 6 speed transmission
Moser 12 bolt w/ 3.73 gears

Suspension:
Alston tubular subframe connectors
Custom drivehsaft loop
Custom steering brace
3" Steel Extreme Duty driveshaft
Random Technology lower control arms and adjustable torque arm set to -2 degrees pinion angle
Spohn panhard bar and LCA relocation brackets set to lowest hole
Hotchkis 1" sport springs
Monroe Sensa Trac struts & shocks

Approximate weight of 3450lbs with full tank and driver, and a best time NA of 12.473 @ 110.81 with a slipping clutch, Old comp cam xe274 and 2000 AFR 195's. 95% street car, 5% strip (I would love to see 11.50-11.70 NA when I do go. The car should have easily ran 11.90 or so with the old combo, but my slipping clutch kept me from doing so.)

1. Now with a Bullet solid cam...

Advertised Duration IN/EX: 265/275
Duration @.050 IN/EX: 235/244
Gross Valve Lift IN/EX: .500"/.533"
Lobe Sep Angle / Intake Ctr Line: 110/106
Valve Lash IN/EX: .018"/.020"

2. AFR 195 Eliminators "Street" version.

70Camaro406
03-21-2008, 05:49:31 PM
On to the desktop dyno debate. The flow numbers in the files included with the program don't always seem accurate. I read the magazines too. I look for tests done at reputable places as far as flowbech and dyno work go. The numbers generated in those tests do not often match the flowfiles and hence the power output in the computer program.

I agree, that's why I enter actual flow numbers from flow-bench tests and manufacturers' websites, i.e. www.airflowresearch.com (http://www.airflowresearch.com).

70Camaro406
03-21-2008, 06:30:20 PM
This could be interesting to compare the DD numbers being posted with real track numbers...

Anyone wanna DD my combo? Then I should be able to get some track times later this summer and post back to see how far off DD is?


Here is your engine...I had to use a single plane intake, so below 4000 should be stronger.

355/AFR/Bullet cam
RPM.....HP....TQ
2000--130--341
2500--171--360
3000--219--384
3500--276--414
4000--334--438
4500--391--456
5000--437--459
5500--473--451
6000--493--431
6500--496--400
7000--480--360
7500--453--317
8000--421--277
AVG-367HP-391TQ
AVG-3000-7000 RPMs - 399.8HP - 421.4TQ

I used a sticky 26" rear tire for you, since you didn't list what tires you have...

As long as you launch good, shift pretty quickly (0.15 second shifts), and don't miss a shift...here are the results:

..Engine.............HP...TQ...Launch RPM.....60'......1/8....MPH.......1/4.......MPH
-355 AFR/Bullet-496--459----4000-------1.920--7.558--99.0---11.611--121.6

Good luck this summer.:happy:

LILRED406
03-21-2008, 07:08:29 PM
Average horspower and torque numbers,from 2000 rpm til peak HP-
350 HP 317 TQ 391. 383 HP 296 TQ 412.Now for a freak number,The 350 averaged exactly 21 more horsepower than the 383,but the 383 averaged exactly 21 ft lbs more torque.

The 350 has more usable rpm(6500 peak vs. 5500 peak 383)
The 383 has a wider torque curve(TQ400+ 2500rpm vs 2000rpm350)

Now I'm really dazed and confused?
tourqe wins on the street dds are wourhless

LILRED406
03-21-2008, 07:16:34 PM
I agree, that's why I enter actual flow numbers from flow-bench tests and manufacturers' websites, i.e. www.airflowresearch.com (http://www.airflowresearch.com).
your wrong a 195 runner is way to big for a 350 neeed 410 gears and a high stall 6500+
a 383 can youse 355 gears and shift at 5700 no solid cam needed are high stall my 406 would trounce youres in the same car oh ya i have 323gears 2700stall 78 are 300lbs heavir then a 71 195 afrs. if 350s are so great why do you have a 406?

BonzoHansen
03-21-2008, 08:01:09 PM
383 - Vortecs
RPM.....HP.....TQ
2000--148---388
2500--195---409
3000--246---430
3500--305---458
4000--363---476
4500--413---482
5000--452---475
5500--465---444
6000--459---402
6500--435---351
7000--397---297
7500--354---247
8000--293---192
AVG--348HP-388TQ
2000-6500 RPM AVG - 348HP-431TQ

355 AFR 195's Comp
RPM.....HP.....TQ
2000--134---352
2500--177---371
3000--226---396
3500--287---431
4000--350---459
4500--410---479
5000--465---488
5500--502---479
6000--524---459
6500--531---429
7000--519---389
7500--501---350
8000--458---300
AVG--391HP-414TQ
2500-7500 RPM AVG -408HP-430TQ

I'm just playing with excel at this point...

On a side note, Led Heads, it's on! (http://youtube.com/watch?v=vLK3GhmxaBo)

onebad82z
03-21-2008, 10:58:16 PM
I used a sticky 26" rear tire for you, since you didn't list what tires you have...

As long as you launch good, shift pretty quickly (0.15 second shifts), and don't miss a shift...here are the results:

..Engine.............HP...TQ...Launch RPM.....60'......1/8....MPH.......1/4.......MPH
-355 AFR/Bullet-496--459----4000-------1.920--7.558--99.0---11.611--121.6

Good luck this summer.:happy:

27" ET streets.

That would put a damn big grin on the face to run anywhere near that time NA. Hopin' for 11.70's @ 115 or so. Then honk on it with the 100 shot. Either way I will post up with this DD info and what it actually does! Thank you!

fabio
03-22-2008, 12:44:32 PM
all I have to say is a fellow that use to post on here had a vortec headed 383 with a hydraulic cam that went 11.4 in a nova. I don't care what head you have you will have trouble touching that with a 307.

LILRED406
03-22-2008, 02:32:27 PM
all I have to say is a fellow that use to post on here had a vortec headed 383 with a hydraulic cam that went 11.4 in a nova. I don't care what head you have you will have trouble touching that with a 307.

I agree afrs might make 50 more horse thats not gonna overcome a 76 ci differance no way.

Marv D
03-22-2008, 05:19:35 PM
This thread is making me crazy, tenths and milli HP
For a street motor go with Vortecs for gods sake, everthing bolts up and you are not spending a fortune, I have done two swaps, a 355 and a 383, both run like like raped apes. I don't run them on the strip and I don't care if AFR's are 1 miilisecond or 2 lapidaries faster.

Jerry, any ol trip on the short buss makes you crazy,, we understand.
Look, the vortec's are an OK performer, I'll give them that. BUT they are not a performance piece. And they are not that great in terms of reliability. Go do a search around the entire net (other than the few here that think that GM vortec junk is good stuff) and see how many have cracked vortecs. If you want a vortec,, so be it. There are plenty of alternatives from RHS, Edelbrock (in aluminum that knocs the socks off that stock crap), get a REAL head and forget about those crap GM castings. The stock vortecvs of today are the 'camelhumps' of yesteryear. Then look at how many people are throwing thier ol camelhumps in the scrap bin in favor of something that is a REAl performance head. Yes they make more power than the rest of the stock junk, BUT,, compared to "_________" . You put them up against a REAL performance head and they pale in comparison.

Jerry, we can easily put this to bed. You bring your vortec 383 in the Camaro out to Firebird and I'll bring my '3580 pound brick' with the little AFR210 383,,, Not only will Barb spank you, but you will find out that a raped-ape is supposed to run like!!! ;) Of corse you will only have this distant view from WAY behind,, but I think you'll get the idea.

BonzoHansen
03-22-2008, 08:02:49 PM
Who rapes apes? Really? LOL

70Camaro406
03-22-2008, 11:10:32 PM
Well said Marv...well said.

Those who know anything about making power, know that it's all about getting air in and getting air out. And on an engine, that equates to the most efficient heads and cam for that application. In other words, it all comes down to the best heads and cam. Period.

Those that argue the Vortec side and put down the AFR side obviously haven't ridden in something with AFR's on it. Trust me, it's like night and day.

LILRED406
03-23-2008, 12:19:10 AM
[QUOTE=Toomanyhobbys]Marv you are so full of sh*t your eyes are brown. Go ahead and bring your little red wagon. The Vortecs are killer heads, you are just afraid to say that you have put way tooo mucho $ in that POS you run where I can run a street car. What a dick you are for this post

++++++++1,000

$400 STOCKC VORTECS MADE MORE 5 LBS MORE TORK THEN $2000 FULL CNC HEADS.

PORT AND POLISH THEM VORTECS ,AIR GAP IT, WILL EMBRASS AFR 355 350

PLUS DO NOT NEED A SOLID CAM, HIGH STALL, AND,STEEP GEARS ,33 MORE CUBES, YOU WILL LOSE :eek:

RustoRod
03-23-2008, 01:57:20 AM
Does anyone have any back to back real information on this ? I do not have one of each sitting in my garage. I wish I did. I do appreciate that the one guy "manned up as the 355 AFR guy" and when his build is done we will see what happens. I know in all the desk top simulations I have run that the stock vortec headed 383 cannot stay in front of the AFR 355 past the 60 foot mark. This is using hydraulic flat tappet cams and dual plane manifolds in each with the same gearing and converter in each simulation. Again the 355 gets 1/2 point of compression since it has aluminum heads and is less octane sensitive. To answer the original question if you have a short block that can take 500 horsepower and 7000 rpm then go the afr route. If you do not then build the 383 with a stout bottom end. The theoretical 355 will not be that far ahead and now that you have a stout shortblock you can spray your way to victory. And if you want to clean those vortecs up at home all bets are off.:bowtie:

Marv D
03-23-2008, 02:15:30 AM
Here's the thing,, with the vortecs, your all done at around 475 - 500 MAXHP with out spending a BUTTLOAD of money on them. The AFR's are just getting warmed up at 500,, a 600HP AFR210 383 isn't even trying hard. Someone show me a n/a 600HP vortec 4" bore ANYTHING that didn't have a couple of thousand spent on head development, and I'll kiss Jerry pfhat harry @$$ And I don't make that offer lightly!!! ;)


Sheeze, and here we go with the peanut gallery and the bigger is better come-back. (If the big chiefs are so good Bob,, why ain't you using them? ;) I suppose your going to tell me there a $400 head too.

Marv D
03-23-2008, 02:39:05 AM
Marv

When I fire up Elvira to go get a six pack, I don't rev to 7000 RPM. It's a street car that will see 1% track use. And I didn't have to spend $10k on heads. ANd the beer will still be cold when I get home, geez you sleep with those heads too?

Heyyyyy your catching on there Jerry. Those 'STREET HEADSare just that,,, a STREET HEAD. When you want a performance head,,, you have to look a little farther than the local junk yard or Kmart blue light special. ;)

BonzoHansen
03-23-2008, 01:11:03 PM
Play nice. :)

Marks71BB
03-23-2008, 01:31:21 PM
Now if you guys would just get over these little toys & get a set of REAL heads there would be no discusion.

http://www.dartheads.com/product_images/product_photo-xlarge_image-154.jpg

for the life of me I have NO idea why you keep playing with the little kid toys. step up to a mans size engine & have some REAL HP.



Bold for your viewing pleasure.

Bob
^^^^+1

I'm with Bob on this one...
Theres a reason dragsters and funny cars go big. to win!



it's on (http://youtube.com/watch?v=vLK3GhmxaBo)<<---LOL ;)

Marks71BB
03-23-2008, 01:41:50 PM
Who you callin hussy?

Its all about air flow as mentioned earlier, and yes heads and cam make or break air flow volumes but a bigger pump will move more air. bottom line!!

Put that in yer vortecs and try and smoke it!

70Camaro406
03-23-2008, 02:22:33 PM
I bolted my AFR's on right out of the box.

Gipper
03-23-2008, 02:37:50 PM
I have been following this thread off and on for the past week. First and foremost which vortec heads are you comparing with the AFR's? When someone says "Vortec heads" there are a slew of different varieties from GMPP on the market now that range from stock service replacement heads to the latest greatest aluminum fast-burns. If it's the "$400" stockers to which we are addressing here they have to be modified i.e. larger valve spring pocket, springs, screw in studs to run over .500" lift. With theses mods done they are no longer $400 stock heads. A prepped set of small port Vortecs ready to run up to a .530 lift will cost approx $1100. It sounds as though this is a comparision of apples to oranges and has denigrated in to a p$#sing contest of personal preferences. To address the original question the best bang for the buck for a street engine 1800-5800 rpm go for the most cubic inches and the best flowing heads you can afford. If you compare dollar for dollar you'll build a 355ci w/steel & forged component as you would for a 383 w/cast & hyperectic components. I've always tried to build the strongest bullet I can afford it come down to how deep are your pockets.

Marks71BB
03-23-2008, 02:38:27 PM
Jerry, did you fall down and hit yer head again? lol lol

Yoga - nope
birkenstocks - nope
granola - on occasion.
Big Block - Hell yes!!

Marv D
03-23-2008, 03:49:58 PM
^^^^+1

I'm with Bob on this one...
Theres a reason dragsters and funny cars go big. to win!



it's on (http://youtube.com/watch?v=vLK3GhmxaBo)<<---LOL ;)


Are all you BigBlock guys A.D.D. or what,, pay attention. Were talking small blocks here!!! ;)

jteenstra
03-23-2008, 05:33:08 PM
When are you boys going to quit playing with motors and start using engines?
BIG BLOCK engines!
They use REAL heads! BIG BLOCK heads!
Remember kids, there's no replacement for displacement!
Heh, heh, heh!

John T

Marks71BB
03-23-2008, 05:40:47 PM
Are all you BigBlock guys A.D.D. or what,, pay attention. Were talking small blocks here!!! ;)


Sorry man,

I didnt mean to raise the bar...:)

I'll put it back for the mice in the game;)

jteenstra
03-23-2008, 06:02:18 PM
Ha ha!
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii20/jteenstra/General/PermaBoner.jpg
Look at Jerry and Marv's little motors!!!

-jt

Marks71BB
03-23-2008, 08:00:16 PM
Jerry,

You might just want to get yer face out of the urinal and face life as it realy is.

I got to admit you are mildly entertaining with the farm equipment reference, but you know its stems from a deep rooted emotional size envy thing.

Here lay down on the couch and tell us all about it....

Start with yer childhood. Hmmm what had you so dissapointed that you would settle for something so small?:)

Marks71BB
03-23-2008, 08:41:27 PM
The BBC runs just fine Jerry.

Ya know whats funny is its not year after year.

I'm two years into a three year build, and the engine (Yeah A PIG BLOCK) was running over a year ago.

I have spent a lot of time and money into making sure all that power stays under control and it dont blow things apart. But I understand if yer not familiar with that kida torque;)

There is more to a car than just the engine. Makin it go, turn and stop all are equaly important.

I'm not just a dick, I'm a BIG dick;)<--- BBC reference:p

Can I get ya a new script?

Marks71BB
03-23-2008, 09:43:03 PM
Oh and get a new script??? Excuse me this was a small block discussion till the BBC guys decided to get rude and interject their crap into it.
Dont ya hate it when the big boys show up and steal the spotlight?

Take yer lil mouse and run..... fast as ya can.... and it still wont be fast enough!!! LOL LOL LOL;)

Marks71BB
03-23-2008, 10:10:42 PM
You having another break out? The doc can give you meds to keep it in check. I bet those sores are a PITA...

onebad82z
03-24-2008, 03:49:08 PM
I do appreciate that the one guy "manned up as the 355 AFR guy" and when his build is done we will see what happens.

I will post back with real track numbers when that time comes... should be doing cam break in by mid next month.

But not in this post as no vortec 383 person has offered to front for that combo to compare #'s and this whole damn thread has turned into a BB vs SB pissing match. Age old BS.

zachisageek
03-24-2008, 03:52:04 PM
I will post back with real track numbers when that time comes... should be doing cam break in by mid next month.

But not in this post as no vortec 383 person has offered to front for that combo to compare #'s and this whole damn thread has turned into a BB vs SB pissing match. Age old BS.

Would you like more details on my combo? I have videos and time slips.

onebad82z
03-24-2008, 03:56:53 PM
Would you like more details on my combo? I have videos and time slips.

Sure, let's get this thread back on course if we can. Post up the important details and if someone will DD it to compare theoretical #'s to your actual numbers.. we have some real info to go by. Then when I post back with the 355 combo, the OP will have some real info to start deciding which he wants to build. Everybody has their reasons for building what they have, who cares if one guy wants vortecs and one wants AFR.:cool:

Marks71BB
03-24-2008, 04:15:07 PM
Sorry to have hijacked the thread Guys,

I was just playin with Jerry and it did get a little carried away.

Enough is enough.

Carry on...

zachisageek
03-24-2008, 06:44:51 PM
Sure, let's get this thread back on course if we can. Post up the important details and if someone will DD it to compare theoretical #'s to your actual numbers.. we have some real info to go by. Then when I post back with the 355 combo, the OP will have some real info to start deciding which he wants to build. Everybody has their reasons for building what they have, who cares if one guy wants vortecs and one wants AFR.:cool:

I bought the car with the engine built, so I don't know the compression...Assume a dished piston or at least some sort of -cc piston, since it doesn't sound like more than 10.0:1. My best guess would be below 9.5:1.

vortec heads (042 castings, nothing else known)
comp cams 280H (230/230@0.050 and .480"/.480")
performer rpm air-gap for vortecs
Mallory 5500 rpm street HEI distributor
1.5 ratio roller rockers
5.7" Eagle H beam rods
Interally balanced rotating assembly using mallory steel
1 pc rear main seal block
Electric fuel pump set at 5.75 psi
Edelbrock performer 750 mech secondaries (no on track carb tuning, nasty tip in stumble)
Summit 1-5/8 ceramic coated long tubes 3" collectors
pypes x pipe 2.5"
magnaflow straight through mufflers
3.73 gears with posi
225/75/15 rear tires
TH350
6000 RPM shift point (indicated by stock tach)

1980 camaro with full interior, factory hood with large hole/fiberglass cowl, no AC, alum radiator, unsure of the total weight. 300 lb driver weight. Tools and spare fluids in the car during run.

12.93@ 110 w/ 2.165 60ft (http://www.fquick.com/videos/drag_race/3689)

Marv D
03-24-2008, 07:58:14 PM
Screw Jerry, If he cant stand the heat, he can get the hell out of Arizona.
Bob

but he does,, must be slinging dope on the side or something so he can be one of those dam snowbirds!

zack, seriously don't take the hijack personally. We just sometimes have to bit*h slap these guys into reality!

Without all the accurate details (what has been done to the heads, and what compression might be, what if any considerations was built into the motor as far as windage considerations...) anything is a guess. I would take any desktop ,engine analyzer, similator or other programs result with a grain of salt. It's hard enough to get accurate results with exact, proven data. When you start guessing your getting the same in return.

zachisageek
03-24-2008, 08:08:03 PM
Without all the accurate details (what has been done to the heads, and what compression might be, what if any considerations was built into the motor as far as windage considerations...) anything is a guess. I would take any desktop ,engine analyzer, similator or other programs result with a grain of salt. It's hard enough to get accurate results with exact, proven data. When you start guessing your getting the same in return.

I agree with you. The only solid information I have is what it ran in the 1320. The only power guesstimates I have are taking an assumed curb weight of 3700 lbs (trying to stay conservative) and trap speed to calculate "net" hp.

Marv D
03-24-2008, 09:37:18 PM
Your best indicator of HP is going to be an accurate total weight (you can get that at any truck stop, grain weigh station, or most any NHRA track), and the MPH it ran in the 1/4, and you can even correct that to sea level HP if you get the envoornmental data for the pass you have the MPH for.

Led Zep
03-24-2008, 09:52:50 PM
After reading all the threads,bolt on a set of AFR195 to a 350,and 500 Horsepower and 500 LBS of torque is a LOCK.You guys rock,500 horsepower 350 RULES

RustoRod
03-24-2008, 09:55:40 PM
I like Desktop Dyno for what it is. It will show you trends and get you in the ballpark. I remember the days of parts that didn't work that well and all sorts of experts that were really just guessing themselves. Now to the point I ran Zach's combo two ways on desktop dyno. I used 10:1 compression, high and max flow dual plane manifolds with headers etc. I assumed a 2500 conveter on drag basic. One result was 13.15 @ 104 with 2.07 short time. The other 12.96 @107 and 2.12 short time. I used a 4000 # race weight. It's not the same as a real dyno or the track but it beats talking to the techline people at the mail order houses. Desktop dyno shows 401 hp @ 5000 & 468 ft# @3500. I think that's a pretty good estimate.:happy:

Led Zep
03-24-2008, 10:12:06 PM
Like I said,bolt on AFR195 Elimanators to a 350 and I have a 500 Horsepower/500 POUND TORQUE MOSTER.I am sold on AFR's at his point.Getting 500 Horsepower is impressive.

zachisageek
03-24-2008, 10:42:27 PM
I like Desktop Dyno for what it is. It will show you trends and get you in the ballpark. I remember the days of parts that didn't work that well and all sorts of experts that were really just guessing themselves. Now to the point I ran Zach's combo two ways on desktop dyno. I used 10:1 compression, high and max flow dual plane manifolds with headers etc. I assumed a 2500 conveter on drag basic. One result was 13.15 @ 104 with 2.07 short time. The other 12.96 @107 and 2.12 short time. I used a 4000 # race weight. It's not the same as a real dyno or the track but it beats talking to the techline people at the mail order houses. Desktop dyno shows 401 hp @ 5000 & 468 ft# @3500. I think that's a pretty good estimate.:happy:

Thank you Rusto. Now, will it be possible to get my short times into the sub 1.8 second range and get a 12.1x out of this bad boy?

Toomanyhobbys
03-24-2008, 11:00:36 PM
Sorry to have hijacked the thread Guys,

I was just playin with Jerry and it did get a little carried away.

Enough is enough.

Carry on...

Screw You Mark what an ass you are for even getting involved in this thread.
You BBC girls just amaze me. Yeah put a BBC in your car not watch it run. Blah blah blah

Marks71BB
03-24-2008, 11:21:10 PM
http://www.reallyfunnypictures.co.uk/general/pics/23.02.06/chillpill.jpg

You know you want one:

http://www.shaverengines.com/images/crate/BigMotor.gif

Start saving yer allowance and maybee some day......maybee....some day.......

onebad82z
03-24-2008, 11:59:28 PM
I like Desktop Dyno for what it is. It will show you trends and get you in the ballpark. I remember the days of parts that didn't work that well and all sorts of experts that were really just guessing themselves. Now to the point I ran Zach's combo two ways on desktop dyno. I used 10:1 compression, high and max flow dual plane manifolds with headers etc. I assumed a 2500 conveter on drag basic. One result was 13.15 @ 104 with 2.07 short time. The other 12.96 @107 and 2.12 short time. I used a 4000 # race weight. It's not the same as a real dyno or the track but it beats talking to the techline people at the mail order houses. Desktop dyno shows 401 hp @ 5000 & 468 ft# @3500. I think that's a pretty good estimate.:happy:

I ran a 12.473@110.81 (1.86 60ft) with a 3450 race weight at Island last August 11,2007. Right around 95 degrees if I remember right. That was with the old AFR 195's (2000 year non eliminators) and Comp Cam XE274, all else the same! Well, that and my clutch was slipping like a b!tch.

LILRED406
03-25-2008, 12:12:44 AM
Why ???

So I spend upteen hours tryin to figure out how to fit it into my car without
cutting crap out or whining about how nothing fits, because GM engineers never designed one with a BBC? Get a clue... it does'nt work ya dipsh#t.

70 1/2 2nd gen did come with a big block 396.
my bigblock fit like a glove even w/2inch headers in my 78camaro.
used the same motor mount from 406 sbc no problems at all.:bowtie:

Marks71BB
03-25-2008, 12:32:06 AM
My 454 fit right in no problem also.

Remember the SS396 was offered from the factory Jerry, fitment is not the issue. The issues come from making the car capeable of handeling all that power!!

RustoRod
03-25-2008, 05:11:05 AM
Zach your combo could use a 3500 converter, carb tuning and a set of drag tires. DD shows that going in the 12.30s with a 1.68 short time. Also I would experiment with the shift point between 5500 and 6k .Anything is possible how much are you planning to change ?:bowtie:

zachisageek
03-25-2008, 11:25:19 AM
Zach your combo could use a 3500 converter, carb tuning and a set of drag tires. DD shows that going in the 12.30s with a 1.68 short time. Also I would experiment with the shift point between 5500 and 6k .Anything is possible how much are you planning to change ?:bowtie:

First stuff this spring is solid body bushings and alston subframe connectors, then fixing my brakes.

Looking at getting non-burned plug wires, Holley 750 DP w/ proform center section, fixing my exhaust problem, 6AL, cal-tracs, appropriate 9-9.5" stall, drag radials, in that order. I've also got an oil consumption problem, so if its in the heads, theres a possibility of some work there too. Maybe just changing to 1.6 rockers on the exhaust side.

The 2.165 60' was leaving off the foot brake since my brakes couldn't hold the car still at the track.