I am considering buying a weiand 144 low profile blower for my 350 build-up and wanted to know if this would be a good combo
350 0.030 over
AFR 195's w/68cc chambers
Weisco pro-tru forged pistons 20cc dish 8.2:1 cr
Lunati 5.7" street race rods
Crane powermax hyd roller pn 119831 grind HR-284-2s-12 IG
adv dur 284/292 0.050 dur 222/230
Lift 0.543/0.563 with 1.6 rockers
112 deg lobe spread
Comp Cams pro magnum 1.6 roller rocker arms
Holley 750dp with proform main body
MSD street pro-billet dist w vac adv.
Blackjack 1 5/8 full lenght headders
2.5" dual exhaust
I already have the cam and lifters.

The car will be mostly street driven.


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81 camaro, 350, GM forged crank, 10.2:1CR, Lunati street race rods, AFR 195cc heads straight plugs, Edelbrock RPM intake, Holley 750 double pumper proform main body, comp cams 282S solid lifter cam, MSD street pro billit distributor and 6AL ignition, Hooker super comp headers, munci 4spd., Richmond 4.10:1 gears

I would go with a boost-referenced carb and a boost retard ignition.

[This message has been edited by onovakind67 (edited November 14, 2004).]

looks good http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif should make 500hp fairly ez http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/wink.gif

I am planning on modifying my carb so that the power valve is boost referenced, I think the holley book I have shows how to do it.

Looks like a pretty good combo to me. 500HP is probably the top end of what that blower is capable of. It just can't flow enough air to make more than that. I have a similar combo but with a 383 and a flat tappet cam. It's putting out in the range of 470-480 at the crank. Hope you've got traction becuase the low end torque of these small roots blowers is real stout. Trying to launch it with those 4.10s in back will probably prove very frustrating.

Don't ever run lean. Don't get greedy with the ignition advance. It'll live a long life.

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92 Camaro RS. Out with the old 195K mile 305 TBI motor, in with a super mild low-buck carbureted 350 built entirely from spare parts I had laying around the joint. 13.5 @ 104 on a biffed run with the new 4.10 gears. If knew how to drive it would run 13.3 or better. Still using the worn-out original 200K mile tranny and stock stall converter.

78 Malibu. Inherited from my Grandomther with only 35K on the odo! 13.4 @ 107 with mild N/A 383. With Weiand 142 blower installed....... not quite so mild. Orignially shooting for 11.99 on street tires, but mid 12s appears to be the best it's gonna do. Too much cam, not enough converter and nowhere near enough traction.

"Last remaining QJet tuner on planet Earth!"

[This message has been edited by Damon (edited November 15, 2004).]

I am hoping the low end torque will give me a good reason to get rid of the 4.10s

Don't ever run lean. Don't get greedy with the ignition advance.

I would go with a boost-referenced carb and a boost retard ignition.

See the correlation? We have seen significant rwhp gains from the MSD BTM boxes. They allow you to use more timing at low boost cruising while retarding the timing as the boost increases. Removing 1°/# makes a huge difference.

How much ignition advace should I run, no more then 28 deg?

I will look into the MSD BTM box

I have a question regarding a "boost referenced" carb.

Is that needed with a roots style blower? I thought it didn't need that only because the roots blower still "sucks" air in through the carb.

I thought "boost referenced" carbs were for centrifical chargers and turbos. http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/confused.gif

Thanx,
AJ

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350CID, Vortec 062 heads, Magnum 280, Performer Intake, Holley 650 DP, 3.42 rear w/ Auburn posi, 2600 Stall/TC
"So what if you have more horsepower per liter. I have more horsepower per car!!"

AJ- you're exactly right. You don't need a boost referenced carb on most mild roots combos. On my engine the intake doesn't go into boost until there's less than about 4" of vacuum at the carb. I have my power valve set to open at 6" of vacuum (it's a QJet so I'm actually talking about the step-up spring, but it functions like a power valve on a Holley). Therefore, the carb is ALWAYS in power-enrichment anytime the engine is seeing boost. No need to boost reference it.

Additionally, there is really no need to use boost retard, either. Unlike a centrifugal where the boost ramps up with RPMs a little roots blower like this goes IMMEDIATELY to max boost anytime the pedal hits the carpet. Mine pegs 5 PSI and holds it, unwavering except maybe 1/4-1/2 PSI, all the way up the RPMs range. So I just run total timing 26* at the distributor, no boost retard. I run a bit more vacuum advance than I would on a N/A motor to help out part throttle responsiveness when not in boost (and yes, it too is set up so that there is NO vacuum advance any time the engine goes into boost).

BTW- My combo I can't run more than 26* at WOT because my compression is a little high (8.7:1). If I was down in the low 8s I could probably run more like 28-30* without detonation. In fact, I plan on doing that maybe next year.

I think that is a fine selection of parts. The only thing I would think more on is making sure you have the right springs for that hydraulic roller, and that you could go with either 1&5/8 or 1&3/4 headers. Might breathe a bit better with the bigger headers as you will have plently of torque anyway so the 1&5/8 won't help much there on a supercharged engine.

Many years ago,I had the same set up as you with the mini-blower. I agree with Damon, that 500hp would be the max, but probably looking at a solid 450-480hp or so, with the biggest difference being the strong & flat torque curve.

I don't know what to say about the carb. I ran an out of box plane jane Holley and it ran perfect for years. If you care about gas mileage, I do strongly suggest a vacuum secondary carb rather than a DP. The 350 with that mild cam & the boost will make for a great combo of power, economy and smooth idling. Gas economy is great as long as you keep your foot out of it, with the vacuum secondary. If this is primarily a street car, I think you will like the vacuum secondary much better, overall.

Those little blowers are way under-rated in light of the stroker-craze we are seeing now. I have had both the mini and big blowers, and I really like the mini-blowers for the street.

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1973 RS Z28: Littlefield race series 6-71 supercharger on a 355 w/ AFR 195 heads, 10-12 lbs boost, 7.6:1 static compression, CompCams hydraulic roller (276/288 advertised, 224/236 @.050 duration, .510/.527 lift w/ 1.52 rockers on a 113 lobe separation), AFR Hydra-Rev kit, Eagle 4340 Forged Steel crankshaft, ARP studded bottom end, Eagle ESP H-beam rods, TRW forged reverse dome pistons, Comp Pro-Magnum 1.52 roller rockers with 7/16 studs, twin 750 Edelbrock carbs, 1&3/4 inch Hooker Super Comps, 3" dual exhaust with cross over pipe. MSD 6AL ignition & Pro-billet distributor, Tremec TKO-500 5-speed, Moser 12 bolt with Eaton posi, 33 spline axles & 3.42 gears.

I thought "boost referenced" carbs were for centrifical chargers and turbos.

Are you sure you're not confusing a boost referenced fuel system with a boost-referenced carb?

Boost referenced carbs are made for draw-through installations, like roots blowers. With a roots blower is entirely possible to be under boost in the manifold while the area under the carb is under vacuum. If your power valve is referenced to this vacuum, you could close the power valve causing a lean condition. There have already been admonitions about running lean. If you reference the power valve to manifold pressure it will remain open even though you create a vacuum under the carb.

If you use a centrifugal system and blow through the carb, you now need to reference the fuel pressure to the boost, but the carb will function normally. On a normal carb the power valve operates on the difference in pressure between the fuel bowl, which is vented to the top of the carb, and the area just under the throttle plate. When you pressurize the carb it raises the pressure on both sides of the power valve, keeping the operation the same as atmospheric.

You don't really need the BTM box, you can do it with vacuum advance, but a BTM is much easier to tune, you just dial it in. We have a customer with a 355" SBC with a small blower, and the BTM tuning was worth about 40 rwhp.

OK. Now I'm really confused.

I'd read somewhere (can't remember now) that if you pressurize a carb that hasn't been setup for it that the pressure in the fuel bowls can push gas back toward the fuel pump (theoretically). I guess that actually means creates too much pressure for the fuel pump to overcome.

Is that why you need a boost reference fuel pump? And will this pressure (~8 psi) be enough to blow the fuel bowl gaskets?

I'm not trying to hijack this thread, but I am interested in possibly putting turbo on the '71. If I follow through with this, of course I'll be building an adequate engine, but I just want to know what all is involved short of picking the right turbo(s). I need to know the entire cost and "other things" that are included in putting turbo on a car.

But due to simplicity sake, I may just go with a roots blower. That's one of the reasons for my questions in THIS thread. http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/smile.gif

Thanx again,
AJ

Is that why you need a boost reference fuel pump?

Exactly. Here's a good writeup of a centrifugally supercharged 331" SBF that made over 500 rwhp on our dyno. Just click on the links on the High on Carbs article

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/engine.php

Shouln't this combo make more power than that? I think im around there with an N/A 350 and factory heads?

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1972 Camaro 350 factory heads 1.94/1.5 street driven full interior everything works 7.5
91 mph

Who should make more power than what?

Isn't the 144 good for 8-10 psi on a 350 inch engine? Or is Holley's catalog full of baloney?

I would think you could get 600HP from the blower? i dont know much about blowers but i see people posting "should be good for 500 max" or " 475 hp" or is that just a mild engine and his goal is 500?


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1972 Camaro 350 factory heads 1.94/1.5 street driven full interior everything works 7.5
91 mph

Horsepower is just speculative unless it's actually measured. We get lots of cars on the dyno that produce a whole lot less power than the owner was led to believe. We had a very nice El Camino in one day with a real nasty sounding gear drive and a blown 355 that didn't break 200 hp at the rear wheels. A 6-71 blown 355 in a 69 Camaro making 355 rwhp.
It actually doesn't take a lot of horsepower to run pretty quick at the strip. Motortec magazine used to have a nice article on a 404 flywheel hp G/S Nova that ran 11-teens at 118, 7.20 in the 1/8.

Like Onovakind said, making silly horsepower numbers isn't as easy as many people make it sound on the internet. When I say the little 144 is maxed out at 500HP, I'm trying to keep the numbers "real world". With accessories, with an air cleaner, running through a street exhaust system, etc. 500HP AS INSTALLED IN THE CAR is quite a lot of horsepower. Follow any magazine buildup and they always seem to get killer numbers from their engines. Then they put that engine into one of their project cars and run mid 13s. Leaves one scratching one's head when you read about stuff like that.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by Damon:
Like Onovakind said, making silly horsepower numbers isn't as easy as many people make it sound on the internet. When I say the little 144 is maxed out at 500HP, I'm trying to keep the numbers "real world". With accessories, with an air cleaner, running through a street exhaust system, etc. 500HP AS INSTALLED IN THE CAR is quite a lot of horsepower. Follow any magazine buildup and they always seem to get killer numbers from their engines. Then they put that engine into one of their project cars and run mid 13s. Leaves one scratching one's head when you read about stuff like that.</font>

I would like to have 450-500hp "real world", with good low end torque which is why I am looking at the 144 blower.

I think the litle blowers are great. I have the 142 Weiand. Just follow Holley's tuning info from the website. The lowend torque is incredible. You'll really like it.

Hey, any of you guys that are running the Holley/Weiand blowers have any driven pulleys you want to get rid of?
I'm looking for around a 2.5" or one step larger.

I just picked up a 400 the other day, so if the block checks out ok it looks like I will be building a 400 and use 36cc JE blower pistons(8:1 compression) and the weiand 177 blower.

That 400 with the small blower is gonna be an absolute torque monster. If you can get it to hook up it'l be a blast.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by onovakind67:
Horsepower is just speculative unless it's actually measured. We get lots of cars on the dyno that produce a whole lot less power than the owner was led to believe. We had a very nice El Camino in one day with a real nasty sounding gear drive and a blown 355 that didn't break 200 hp at the rear wheels. A 6-71 blown 355 in a 69 Camaro making 355 rwhp.
It actually doesn't take a lot of horsepower to run pretty quick at the strip. Motortec magazine used to have a nice article on a 404 flywheel hp G/S Nova that ran 11-teens at 118, 7.20 in the 1/8. </font>

Like I keep saying, look at the race weight of the vehicle. You cannot simply state it is all about the RWHP - it's *also* about the race-weight of the vehicle in question.

It's one thing to run a 3000 lb. Nova down the track and a horse of another color to run a full weight 2nd gen Camaro with that same engine.

My '77 Z weighs 3725 lbs. race-weight with me in it. Our 2nd gens NEED a lot of power and torque to make it happen vs. a much lighter vehicle, such as an early Nova. There is no way in hell a typical full-weight 2nd gen Camaro like mine would run 11-teens @ 118 with only 400-horse to the tires.

As far as the that car on your dyno that couldn't break 200 HP with a 350 and blower, something is seriously wrong with the way engines are being built down your way.


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'Silver Bullet' 1977 Z-28 413" SB
11.73 @ 115.10 and dropping...
Old Vortec combo:
12.15 @ 110.52
1989 GTA L98
Daily driver

I have a 383/144 combo in my 72 SS. I also run NOS, and the motor and blower loves it. I hit it with a 150 shot on the dyno, and registered just over 700 horse! I just added a B&M tophat intake with dual Weber 40 DCOE side draft carbs, the car is torky!! You can register big numbers with the 383 blower combo, if you set it up right and run the right parts.

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383 Blown, Stroked, and Sprayed!

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by itzqwk:
I have a 383/144 combo in my 72 SS. I also run NOS, and the motor and blower loves it. I hit it with a 150 shot on the dyno, and registered just over 700 horse! I just added a B&M tophat intake with dual Weber 40 DCOE side draft carbs, the car is torky!! You can register big numbers with the 383 blower combo, if you set it up right and run the right parts.

</font>

yeah right, I see you just registered today and this is your first post. Welcome to the board.

What's a B&M Tophat?

I would surely like to see a picture of that �hB&M Tophat intake with 2 Weber 40 DCOE side draft carbs. "

I remember B&M had an air cleaner that looked like that many moons ago, but perhaps you converted it into an actual carb intake??

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1973 RS Z28: Littlefield race series 6-71 supercharger on a 355 w/ AFR 195 heads, 10-12 lbs boost, 7.6:1 static compression, CompCams hydraulic roller (276/288 advertised, 224/236 @.050 duration, .510/.527 lift w/ 1.52 rockers on a 113 lobe separation), AFR Hydra-Rev kit, Eagle 4340 Forged Steel crankshaft, ARP studded bottom end, Eagle ESP H-beam rods, TRW forged reverse dome pistons, Comp Pro-Magnum 1.52 roller rockers with 7/16 studs, twin 750 Edelbrock carbs, 1&3/4 inch Hooker Super Comps, 3" dual exhaust with cross over pipe. MSD 6AL ignition & Pro-billet distributor, Tremec TKO-500 5-speed, Moser 12 bolt with Eaton posi, 33 spline axles & 3.42 gears.

Listen, first off just because that was my first post doesnt mean squat! I have the actual dyno numbers, pics of the car, and the motor, with and without the tophat. The tophat design was made in the mid 70's by B&M. They only made 168 of them and I found one! If someone wants proof, please send me your email address and I will forward you all the pics you want. I am not out to one up anyone, I have a great street machine I have been building for many years, won many awards and races, and dont look for any "special" treatment. I just found this site, registered, and didnt think I would get a "yeah right" for posting. I hope all members are not that way. If you are interested contact me at windale38@aol.com or kimrich419@aol.com. Thank you.

I sent them to all who asked.

Welcome itzqwk, I was watching the below auction since I always check to see what blowers are for sale,are you the buyer? I was amazed to see the Weber setup go for this cheap.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33741&item=7934288646&rd=1

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1978 Z-28 purchased new by me -$6750
Click here (http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/someonehasthisid/detail?.dir=/d752&.dnm=aefd.jpg) to view present state photo
Look above for glory days.
1994 Formula
1982 350 S-10

I have sent pictures, if anyone else needs it please ask.

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383 Blown, Stroked, and Sprayed!

No, That was not me, but a similar set up. I recommend anyone who finds it, get it, it is hot! I apologize if I came off to strong.

[This message has been edited by itzqwk (edited November 28, 2004).]

Many thanks for the pics ITZQWK. That is a beautiful car.. reminds me of my old car/ set up many years ago. Now that I saw those pictures of the B&M side draft carb set-up, I remember those. I had the 162 ci mini-blower (discontinued many years ago when they introduced a smaller & bigger size) at that time and was contemplating buying one.

I would love to see your before and after dyno numbers (without the nitrous) for that thing. Did you have much trouble getting the webers set up/ running right?

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1973 RS Z28: Littlefield race series 6-71 supercharger on a 355 w/ AFR 195 heads, 10-12 lbs boost, 7.6:1 static compression, CompCams hydraulic roller (276/288 advertised, 224/236 @.050 duration, .510/.527 lift w/ 1.52 rockers on a 113 lobe separation), AFR Hydra-Rev kit, Eagle 4340 Forged Steel crankshaft, ARP studded bottom end, Eagle ESP H-beam rods, TRW forged reverse dome pistons, Comp Pro-Magnum 1.52 roller rockers with 7/16 studs, twin 750 Edelbrock carbs, 1&3/4 inch Hooker Super Comps, 3" dual exhaust with cross over pipe. MSD 6AL ignition & Pro-billet distributor, Tremec TKO-500 5-speed, Moser 12 bolt with Eaton posi, 33 spline axles & 3.42 gears.

Thank you for your kind words about my car, it was a nightmare to tune with the linkage and the jetting.

Please tell us more about the set up and especially the before & after dyno figures. It is a very interesting set up that I would like to know more about.

ITZQWK...also ...what are the engine specs..what camshaft?

I would love to see pics if you dont mind. Im not challenging, I just wanna see.
~Or a link to 'em couldnt hurt...

Let me rephrase that,can't believe the Webers didn't get any higher.

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1978 Z-28 purchased new by me -$6750
Click here (http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/someonehasthisid/detail?.dir=/d752&.dnm=aefd.jpg) to view present state photo
Look above for glory days.
1994 Formula
1982 350 S-10

I have been in touch with the guy who was selling those, and his reserve was not met, and he did not sell them. I know I paid much more than that. The carbs alone sell for $400.00 each used, over $500.00 new and you cant get the intake anywhere.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7926759909&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:US:1

ITZQWK,
I would also like some photos of that set-up, it looks like it wouln't be too much trouble to fabricate one of those intakes and solve the hood clearence problems with the 177 blower.

Thanks for the replies.
After considering that I found a 400 and would want to run the 177 on it and need to have the carb sticking out ot the hood I have decided not to go with the blower. I would also be able to save about $1800.

<font face="Arial,Verdana" size="2">Originally posted by onovakind67:
Is that why you need a boost reference fuel pump?

Exactly. Here's a good writeup of a centrifugally supercharged 331" SBF that made over 500 rwhp on our dyno. Just click on the links on the High on Carbs article

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/engine.php</font>


The link wont work, just do a search for "high on carbs" in the search block in the upper corner and it has several links to the artcile for centrifical chargers.
http://www.fordmuscle.com
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2004/05/supercharger/index.shtml